OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[coolcanadian]

You are being simply absurd. If you do nut understand that an amusement park can be world class, then you are very single-minded.

Here is an example of an amusement pair that is not world class..

Do you see the difference? I would hope so. I do not want to start an argument on whether Wonderland is world class or not, because that would be getting off topic. Just like skyscrapers, there is an entire forum website for Canada's Wonderland. It is definitely a world class facility.

Just as a casino can be world class.

You are really being stupid.

A hotel can be world class. A restaurant can be world class. A show can be world class. A nightclub can be world class. Convention space can be world class.

Are you really suggesting that adding this will instantly deem the entire complex as bad and not wanted in Toronto?

 

[jn_12]

Hey Canadiancool, instead of showing pictures, can you cite some facts and figures from studies that show how cities and tourism sectors in urban environments benefit from casinos? I feel like you're enamored by the glitz and glam of these pictures and not really aware of the reality, particularly from a tourism perspective, as you seem to speak in vague terms of "attracting millions of people and billions of dollars".

 

[coolcanadian]

Hey Canadiancool, instead of showing pictures, can you cite some facts and figures from studies that show how cities and tourism sectors in urban environments benefit from casinos? I feel like you're enamored by the glitz and glam of these pictures and not really aware of the reality, particularly from a tourism perspective, as you seem to speak in vague terms of "attracting millions of people and billions of dollars".

I actually have used facts in older posts. I used the photos to prove a point.

To begin, a detailed study is currently being conducted by the city. The city study will look at the potential benefits and costs of a Toronto casino. The study, to be completed by Oct. 9, will assess the potential impact on jobs, tourism, businesses, addiction and crime.

City-owned land on the downtown-area waterfront — such as the CNE or the Port Lands — would be ideal, since the city could reap $50 million to $75 million per year in lease payments in addition to the taxes and economic benefits from a project he estimated at $3 billion to $5 billion.

It is estimated that in total, the project would bring “close to $100 million a year†into city coffers.


The fact that a study has not yet been done means I cannot give you direct information on Toronto, however I can compare this to something else.

I am comparing this to the Crown Casino in Melbourne. I find this to be a good comparison because Melbourne is similar to Toronto in many ways. Both cities are safe, clean, livable, and not thought of as "tourist cities" i.e. Vegas or Niagara Falls. The Crown was also built on the Waterfront in the downtown.

1. Built at a cost of $2 billion in 1997. This is significantly less than the Toronto proposal, so the benefits will not be as large.

2. It is visited by up to 16 million people each year and over 40,000 per day (approximately 7% international guests and 13% interstate guests). However, Australia is an island and has a significantly lower amount of international tourists than Canada.

3. Crown operates one of the largest single-site VIP operations in the world.

4. Total Casino Tax - over $3 Billion (approx).

5. Annual Crown Levy - $5 Million (approx).

6. State’s largest single-site, private sector employer with over 6,500 employees, over 3,300 contractors and over $350 Million annual payroll.

7. Support for local businesses, with over $125 Million in annual expenditure with suppliers of goods and services.

8. Extensive training facilities with Crown College with over 10,000 employees trained in the past 13 years.

9. Over 20,000 filming and photography requests from all over the globe have been facilitated.

10. 21% of employees have worked at Crown for over 10 years.

11. Crown Melbourne is the largest and most successful entertainment complex in the Southern Hemisphere and one of the largest in the world.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this widens your view. Crown, built by a third party casino company, has created many benefits to Melbourne.

Another thing I would like to say is that Melbourne is not thought of as a casino town, even with this project.

I will now show you some photos of the Crown complex. I do not think that it ruined the city in any way. There are 3 luxury hotels, many restaurants, shops, an arcade, bowling, two theatres, convention space, meeting space, shops, laser tag. It actually has many 'family' features.

The three hotel towers:

Nighttime fire show on the water:

Some of the rooms:

The atrium:

Other photos:

 

[Frankie1984]

Kudos coolcanadian!

I've always envisioned a TO casino to be similar to the Crown Casino in Melbourne. The Crown is a multi-purpose entertainment facility; it contains an arcade, a bowling alley, nightclubs, food courts, shopping, cafes, pubs... from what I can remember. It is not tacky in anyway and it blends in nicely in Melbourne's CBD (downtown). Think of it as an all in one entertainment centre, something like that can work here.

 

[coolcanadian]

Kudos coolcanadian!

I've always envisioned a TO casino to be similar to the Crown Casino in Melbourne. The Crown is a multi-purpose entertainment facility; it contains an arcade, a bowling alley, nightclubs, food courts, shopping, cafes, pubs... from what I can remember. It is not tacky in anyway and it blends in nicely in Melbourne's CBD (downtown). Think of it as an all in one entertainment centre, something like that can work here.

Thank you!!! I'm so glad someone understands!! It doesn't need to be just a casino. In fact, it is not planned to be just a casino. Only 5% of it will be a casino. The rest of it is planned to be a world class entertainment complex.

Honestly, if someone thinks an entertainment complex with a wide range of activities, hotels and restaurants will ruin our city, then they are hopeless. The fact that a well designed casino might take up one part of the complex should not be a reason not to build it. The Ex already has a temporary casino. This will be nicer, and provide permanent jobs.

 

[adma]

You are being simply absurd. If you do nut understand that an amusement park can be world class, then you are very single-minded.

Here is an example of an amusement pair that is not world class..

And, y'know: within its parameters, maybe Calaway Park isn't that bad for not being "world class".

Look: this isn't about casinos and amusement parks per se, but you don't seem to get my point in raising Thomas Kinkade etc. That is, just because "millions of people" like something doesn't make something "world class".

You might as well argue that neighbourhoods like Rosedale and the Annex should rescind any binding heritage and zoning standards because the existing old stuff there is old and obsolete and unsuitable to today's SUV-scaled lifestyle that reeeealllly adores these "world class" attractions...

 

[coolcanadian]

And, y'know: within its parameters, maybe Calaway Park isn't that bad for not being "world class".

Look: this isn't about casinos and amusement parks per se, but you don't seem to get my point in raising Thomas Kinkade etc. That is, just because "millions of people" like something doesn't make something "world class".

You might as well argue that neighbourhoods like Rosedale and the Annex should rescind any binding heritage and zoning standards because the existing old stuff there is old and obsolete and unsuitable to today's SUV-scaled lifestyle that reeeealllly adores these "world class" attractions...

Calaway Park is not even in the same league as Wonderland. An amusement park can be world class. What makes Wonderland world class isn't the fact that millions like it. It's the fact that it is clean, has nice fountains, amazing rides, and professional staff, etc. It has nothing to do with how many people like it.

Rosedale and the Annex are beautiful and have great feel to them. They make Toronto what it is. I would never want to get rid of them.

However, putting a luxury resort entertainment complex on the Portlands or in a parking lot at The Ex is a great idea.

It is not getting rid of anything old, like a well-established neighbourhood. In fact, you saying I would like to see those gone is very immature.

Putting something here will not affect those neighbourhoods at all.

Having an integrated resort on our waterfront would not mean we can't have a museum, neighbourhood, or other facility in our city.

By the way, a casino resort can 100% be world class. If you do not see that, go back to school! A 5 star hotel with amazing finishes, good staff, fine dining, great entertainment, polished casino, high end shops, etc. would definitely be world class. Please explain how it would not.

Just as a well manicured amusement park is world class. A 5 star casino entertainment complex can be also. Stop posting your art example, because that is irrelevant. Art is opinion.

With your logic, anything big cannot be world class. Only small shops on Queen street are nice. We need to embrace both sides of the spectrum, and be happy to offer both.

The definition of world class is: of a standard that ranks among the best in the world; of the highest order or importance.

A hotel can rank among the best in the world. So can a restaurant. So can a gaming facility. Put them all together, you have a world class entertainment venue.

adma, I would like you to answer this question: What about the images below do you think is negative, and what about them is not world class and high end?

How are those photos not world class?

Saying that a resort cannot be world class because it contains a casino is stupid. Are you suggesting that all casinos are bad, bad, bad and they are all on the same level. Are the photos I posted above equal to this, as a casino cannot be world class?

I am not saying "get rid of Toronto's beautiful, unique neighbourhoods"

I am simply saying "we should add a world class facility like this to our beautiful city, and let it live in harmony with our existing communities"

Please answer my question above.


I almost feel bad for you. When you tried to insult me before talking about SUVs and McMansions, it shows me how you think.

The fact is, I, like millions of others, can goto Wonderland and have an amazing time. I am actually going there this weekend, and I know I will have an amazing time on the new World Class, roller coaster. I also know that if a World Class entertainment complex was built in this city, I, like millions of others, would enjoy it too. (They are not world class because millions like them, though, they are because of what I said before) I also, however, enjoy places like Yorkville, Rosedale, Annex, etc. You seem to only be able to enjoy those neighbourhoods. Don't get me wrong, they are great, but there is more to life. You need to accept everything. Why are you so against a great facility that includes 5 star hotels, nightclubs, theatres, etc, and will provide many jobs.

Another fact is many people do gamble. We should surely be happy that, if it must be built to service those who do gamble, the casino is planned to be a billion dollar investment into Toronto and a huge provider of jobs, tourists, and profit.

With your logic, the CN Tower, Skydome, and Acquarium should never have been built/under construction.

You just got told by a 15 year old. lol

But seriously, I hope you understand my point.

To sum up, this is lovely:

But it does not mean we cannot have a billion dollar complex somewhere else, and it does not mean that the complex will get rid of it.

Thanks.

 

[adma]

Just as a well manicured amusement park is world class. A 5 star casino entertainment complex can be also. Stop posting your art example, because that is irrelevant. Art is opinion.

How is it irrelevant? I'm merely posting a metaphor for how your jpg-overload blather about "world class" "world class" world class" everything comes across as cloying drivel. (And "art is opinion" sounds like you're ducking your own home-milieu lack of taste.)

adma, I would like you to answer this question: What about the images below do you think is negative, and what about them is not world class and high end?

[snip photos]

How are those photos not world class?

Again: the way you post glossy photo after glossy photo to prove your point is--as I said. Cloying drivel. Regardless of whether any of that is actually architecturally credible or not.

And you seem stubbornly, persistently oblivious to how the term "world class" can be a punchline--in fact, you're aggressively fueling its punchline status.

I almost feel bad for you. When you tried to insult me before talking about SUVs and McMansions, it shows me how you think.

The fact is, I, like millions of others, can goto Wonderland and have an amazing time. I am actually going there this weekend, and I know I will have an amazing time on the new World Class, roller coaster. I also know that if a World Class entertainment complex was built in this city, I, like millions of others, would enjoy it too. (They are not world class because millions like them, though, they are because of what I said before) I also, however, enjoy places like Yorkville, Rosedale, Annex, etc. You seem to only be able to enjoy those neighbourhoods. Don't get me wrong, they are great, but there is more to life. You need to accept everything. Why are you so against a great facility that includes 5 star hotels, nightclubs, theatres, etc, and will provide many jobs.

Another fact is many people do gamble. We should surely be happy that, if it must be built to service those who do gamble, the casino is planned to be a billion dollar investment into Toronto and a huge provider of jobs, tourists, and profit.

With your logic, the CN Tower, Skydome, and Acquarium should never have been built/under construction.

You just got told by a 15 year old. lol

But seriously, I hope you understand my point. [/FONT]
Thanks.

Sure. Fine. Bla bla bla. But I hope you understand this metaphorical point.

It's like beating the point to the ground re this being "world class" in feminine beauty, desirability, etc. When in fact, we're more likely to find her to be a vapid silicone blonde Hefner-airhead.

Then again, I can understand how an unversed 15 year old can see her as an ideal.

 

[coolcanadian]

adma, I would like to apologize. I think that neither of us want to fight on here. From now on, lets try to focus in the casino instead of going at each other.

That being said, my point is that I think a resort complex that includes over 2000 luxury hotel rooms, a variety of high-end restaurants, upscale shops, fancy nightclubs, exciting theatre shows, large convention space, a well appointed casino, and other attractions would be good for our city.

I think that it should be placed in an area that needs redevelopment (a portion of OP, parking lot of The Ex, Port Lands, etc) not somewhere that it will demolish a great neighbourhood.

I think that if this project is executed well, which is likely due to the amount of interest, it can become a destination within our city that is enjoyed by both tourists and locals. It would provide many good jobs and contribute greatly to our economy.

The design could definitely be nice and act as a positive addition to our skyline.

It could become a place that is known as one of the best in the world, and I do not think that we should miss this opportunity.

If you do not agree with my point of view, I would like to know why.

Why am I showing glossy photos to prove my point? Because these photos are representations of what will get with this kind of project.

I would like to make it clear that I am not saying all of Toronto should be transformed into a huge mega resort destination. I am rather saying that adding a resort to our amazing city will add to its diversity, and surely be something positive.

 

[adma]

Why am I showing glossy photos to prove my point? Because these photos are representations of what will get with this kind of project.

And you know something? Within a UT context, that glossy overkill is offputting. You're killing your own case.

It's like you're trying to score the hottest Holly Madison-esque chick in class; but not only doesn't she want the time of day with you, the way you're going about it is driving her even further away.

Or worse: you're insisting she be even *more*, uh, Holly Madison-like...

That's not "world class".

 

[coolcanadian]

Can you stop? I just said we should stay on topic and stop fighting.

People on this forum pretty much said a casino complex would be tacky and ugly, so I posted photos of ones there are not to prove a point. The fact is, a hotel can be world class. So can an casino, and a restaurant, and an amusement park. I think most people would agree with me. That is the last we should talk about "world class" stuff.

Please focus on the actual content in my previous post about the casino project, rather than world class blah blah and photos of models.

 

[jje1000]

Can you stop? I just said we should stay on topic and stop fighting.

People on this forum pretty much said a casino complex would be tacky and ugly, so I posted photos of ones there are not to prove a point. The fact is, a hotel can be world class. So can an casino, and a restaurant, and an amusement park. I think most people would agree with me. That is the last we should talk about "world class" stuff.

Please focus on the actual content in my previous post about the casino project, rather than world class blah blah and photos of models.

I think both of you should stop until more information is actually released about the casino.

 

[coolcanadian]

I think both of you should stop until more information is actually released about the casino.

I am saying that is can be something great for our city, and we should not put it down until we see a concept.

 

[jje1000]

I am saying that is can be something great for our city, and we should not put it down until we see a concept.

You are putting the cart before the horse, or more frankly, overenthusiastically trying to sell the idea of a resort casino. You can endlessly argue aesthetics with adma, but no one knows what it's going to look like, who's running it or if it's even going to be built.

 

[mdparker]

coolcanadian, you are absolutely bang on from my opinion...