OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[spider]

More than one source has stated that Toronto may only choose yes or no on the establishment of a casino inside Toronto proper but not on who may end up being the builder/operator or where in Toronto the Casino will be built or the design of the complex. I haven't noticed anyone refute this opinion.

If this is the case, and I don't know if it is or not, why are we being treated to all the endless conjecture regarding fees etc? OLG will probably dictate the terms.

While I have your attention, has it not occurred to the warring factions that the job winners projected to benefit from this Casino project live all over the GTA, whether the site chosen is in or out of Toronto probably 50% of the workers will live in Toronto and the rest elsewhere.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

More than one source has stated that Toronto may only choose yes or no on the establishment of a casino inside Toronto proper but not on who may end up being the builder/operator or where in Toronto the Casino will be built or the design of the complex. I haven't noticed anyone refute this opinion.

If this is the case, and I don't know if it is or not, why are we being treated to all the endless conjecture regarding fees etc? OLG will probably dictate the terms.

I agree that the conditions set out in the report appear to have already been dismissed by OLG/the Province and would represent a departure from precedent. I am, however, a cynic, as well as an avowed critic of Ford, Hudak, etc.. From my cynical and biased viewpoint, my sense is that this document is aimed at a provincial election campaign, wherein Doug Ford/Tim Hudak will say that the Liberals passed up a golden opportunity to make a special deal to bring a casino to Toronto. Even more conveniently for this argument is the fact that it will be too late for any Hudak-led government to change course. He gets to have his cake and eat it too.

While I have your attention, has it not occurred to the warring factions that the job winners projected to benefit from this Casino project live all over the GTA, whether the site chosen is in or out of Toronto probably 50% of the workers will live in Toronto and the rest elsewhere.

True, but I'm not sure I get your point. The same could probably be said for City of Toronto employees. Are you saying that the economic development benefits to Toronto are overstated because those benefits would accrue to non-Torontonians as well as Torontonians? If so, then I agree with that assessment.

 

[BurlOak]

More than one source has stated that Toronto may only choose yes or no on the establishment of a casino inside Toronto proper but not on who may end up being the builder/operator or where in Toronto the Casino will be built or the design of the complex. I haven't noticed anyone refute this opinion.

If this is the case, and I don't know if it is or not, why are we being treated to all the endless conjecture regarding fees etc? OLG will probably dictate the terms.

It would be an awfully unfair and dictatorial government that would not let the City have a say in the location or the size of the complex.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Like amalgamation? Or downloading? Won't be the first time, won't be the last.

AoD

 

[BurlOak]

From the Star:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...val_and_at_least_100m_a_year_report_says.html

City Report (from the Apr 15-16 Executive Committee Meeting)

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2013.EX30.1

AoD

From another source, the casino will bring in $400M per year. (http://www.blogto.com/city/2013/04/does_half_a_billion_in_revenue_justify_a_toronto_casino/)

If we assume that traditionally, Toronto funds 20% of subway expansion, the Feds 20%, and the province 60%, that means this casino will raise $0.5B per year. If we start now, the DRL would be paid for before it is finished. I am not sure if the reduced social costs for the unemployed is factored in - which helps reduce the spending needed by all levels of government.

 

[ttk77]

More than one source has stated that Toronto may only choose yes or no on the establishment of a casino inside Toronto proper but not on who may end up being the builder/operator or where in Toronto the Casino will be built or the design of the complex. I haven't noticed anyone refute this opinion.

The province can say that all they want. As long as they stick to their promise to not build a casino in Toronto unless we want one here then they're not in much of a bargaining position. We give our conditions for saying yes, and if the province doesn't capitulate then they don't get a casino here. It all depends on how badly they want a casino downtown Toronto.

 

[jaycola]

I think Toronto should get special treatment when it comes to a casino.

If the goal is to encourage tourism and trade show/convention business and not to suck money out of residents of the GTA, then only having it in a key Toronto location will serve this purpose. The spin off income for the provincial government in taxes and fees will benefit all levels of government. If having it in Toronto means more income for for everyone, Toronto should get a bigger piece of the pie.

I believe a Toronto casino will dwarf the revenues of any all other municipalities being considered. Arguing that all municipalities ought to be treated equally will be at a cost to the provincial coffers if that is the route Wynne wants to take. Encouraging it to be placed in the city will make more money for the province regardless how much more the hosting fees would be.

 

[TrickyRicky]

There will be no casino in Toronto, it will be built in an adjacent 905 community. That is a 100% certainty at this point so all the talking points on this issue have become irrelevent.

I think the only point to be made that is left is what impact do you think the suburban casino location will have on existing entertainment facilities etc. in the downtown area? It will certainly have an impact drawing money directly away from the core but with so many people and jobs moving downtown I don't think we will feel it much down here. In a way this might be a good think, a counter balancing force against the demographic pull sucking investment into the central city. It might have some impact on concert venues as many large concerts will no longer choose downtown venues such as the ACC. But the ACC is already at capacity so negative impacts would probably fall on the secondary level venues like the Sony Centre. If the casino doesn't go to Markham, the new Markham arena project will turn into the greatest boondoggle in GTA infrastructure history.

 

[sixrings]

At least Markham is trying to be urban.. VCC begged for a TTC stop and have no idea what to do with it.

 

[PinkLucy]

There will be no casino in Toronto, it will be built in an adjacent 905 community. That is a 100% certainty at this point so all the talking points on this issue have become irrelevent.

I think the only point to be made that is left is what impact do you think the suburban casino location will have on existing entertainment facilities etc. in the downtown area? It will certainly have an impact drawing money directly away from the core but with so many people and jobs moving downtown I don't think we will feel it much down here. In a way this might be a good think, a counter balancing force against the demographic pull sucking investment into the central city. It might have some impact on concert venues as many large concerts will no longer choose downtown venues such as the ACC. But the ACC is already at capacity so negative impacts would probably fall on the secondary level venues like the Sony Centre. If the casino doesn't go to Markham, the new Markham arena project will turn into the greatest boondoggle in GTA infrastructure history.

Markham said no almost a year ago. However, it can be re-debated (http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/2515647-is-casino-still-in-the-cards-for-markham-/). Would any of the "no" councillors change their minds?

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

If the casino doesn't go to Markham, the new Markham arena project will turn into the greatest boondoggle in GTA infrastructure history.

Bigger than the SkyDome, which was built at the behest of metro chair Paul Godfrey for about $900mm ($570mm in 1989), and which Blue Jays' CEO Paul Godfrey (surely no relation) later purchased for less than 5 cents on the dollar?

 

[TOareaFan]

Bigger than the SkyDome, which was built at the behest of metro chair Paul Godfrey for about $900mm ($570mm in 1989), and which Blue Jays' CEO Paul Godfrey (surely no relation) later purchased for less than 5 cents on the dollar?

leaving out a bunch of stuff in the middle?

So, yes the total cost of the Dome was just under $600 million.......but the province did not pay all of that (somewhere between $150 and $200 million came from the private sector) so, lets take the low end, $150 off of $600 is $450 million......then, long before the province sold the Dome, the hotel was sold separately.....again, I don't remember the number but I think it was in the order of $50 million....so the province is now out of pocket $400 million.....when the province did sell the Dome it was not for 5% of the original cost and was not to Rogers (which I am guessing is what you meant by Paul Godfrey buying it for 5 cents on the dollar). They sold it for around $150 million to a consortium.

So, did the province lose money? yes. Was it the amount of money implied by your statement? no.

In the end was SkyDome a good deal? Hard to say yes or no to that but it is an iconic building in Toronto, one that I am sure a few people from out of town have visited, one that (both during construction and during its years of operation) has produced a dollar or two of tax revenue. White elephant, I don't think so. Expensive project that likely got more expensive than needed...yep, probably.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Vox, I thought about Skydome when I made my Markham comment. While definately a boondoggle, Skydome at least wasn't still born. If the Casino say goes to Vaughan (highly likely, my guess is the new subway terminus at Vaughan Metropolitan centre) the theatre entertainment component will suck all the potential concert business away from taxpayer funded Markham arena. Both these venues will compete for the same business that doesn't insist on a downtown venue.

Also, Casino Rama? They might as well just demolish it.

 

[jaycola]

At least Markham is trying to be urban.. VCC begged for a TTC stop and have no idea what to do with it.

What are you basing that statement on? Is there something you saw in the recently approved Master Plan that showed this area was going to be more sprawl? vaughan_metropolitan_centre

I think Vaughan has big dreams when it comes to urbanizing their downtown core, not unlike Markham.
Implementation will be a decades long process but with the subway extension and VIVA Highway 7 RT what they envision certainly is possible. Give them a Casino and we'll see how quickly these lofty development plans come to fruition. If it's not going to be downtown, a Vaughan site should certainly be top contender. Canada's Wonderland is already North America's number one seasonal amusement park. I can't see why another 905 location would be favoured over Vaughan.

[video=youtube;m3uO9eU8SwI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3uO9eU8SwI[/video]

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

leaving out a bunch of stuff in the middle?

So, yes the total cost of the Dome was just under $600 million.......but the province did not pay all of that (somewhere between $150 and $200 million came from the private sector) so, lets take the low end, $150 off of $600 is $450 million......then, long before the province sold the Dome, the hotel was sold separately.....again, I don't remember the number but I think it was in the order of $50 million....so the province is now out of pocket $400 million.....when the province did sell the Dome it was not for 5% of the original cost and was not to Rogers (which I am guessing is what you meant by Paul Godfrey buying it for 5 cents on the dollar). They sold it for around $150 million to a consortium.

So, did the province lose money? yes. Was it the amount of money implied by your statement? no.

In the end was SkyDome a good deal? Hard to say yes or no to that but it is an iconic building in Toronto, one that I am sure a few people from out of town have visited, one that (both during construction and during its years of operation) has produced a dollar or two of tax revenue. White elephant, I don't think so. Expensive project that likely got more expensive than needed...yep, probably.

This whole SkyDome discussion is a bit of a thread-jack (for which I apologize), but if you're going to count the "bunch of stuff in the middle", make sure you count it all, including the hundreds of millions in operating debt. But I digress...

In fact, I agree with your assertion that the Dome has produced tax revenue, and I would add that it served as the catalyst for an ongoing, multi-generational redevelopment of areas to its north, south, east and west.

But I still think Paul Godfrey should have been forced to mortgage his future generations to pay back the original cost to the public purse, in addition to the $25mm the Jays paid in 2004.