Occupy Toronto Market Exchange

[Silence&Motion]

Anyone who thinks wealth inequality is primarily an American problem should take a moment to re-examine David Hulchanski's map that has been making so many waves over the past couple years:

The middle is falling out of Toronto's economy, as it is in most economies in the western world. We're facing a job market that is increasingly split between high paying jobs in the FIRE sector (finance, insurance, and real estate), and unstable, low-wage jobs in the low-end service sector. Furthermore, one of Toronto's last sources of stable, middle-class employment - the public sector - is being dismissed as "gravy" by our own mayor.

Toronto's problems are not caused by "lazy" people who don't want to get jobs. Our problems are rooted in the very structure of our economy.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"First they came for . . . the Bankers . . ."

Be careful for what you wish.


Regards,
J T

 

[Silence&Motion]

"First they came for . . . the Bankers . . ."

Be careful for what you wish.


Regards,
J T

What exactly do you think I'm wishing for?

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"What exactly do you think I'm wishing for?"
QUOTE Silence&Motion


It's Greek to me.


Regards,
J T

 

[TOareaFan]

Good try!
When your department is downsized and you are expected to take on the workload of two or three other people along with your own, or your one of the unlucky one's who loses their job mid-life, then you'll get it.
It's interesting to note that the biggest company in the US doesn't make a damn thing on their own shores, and that would be Apple. It's a great example of what's wrong with corporate America and why many of us will see our quality of life on these shores continue to decline as middle income jobs continue to disappear.

Not sure I understand that? Are you saying that unemployment/economic challenges were ok as long as it was "over there" but not so good when it is here? If that is not what your saying I apologize...but that is what I "get from" the "the biggest company in the US doesn't make a damn thing on their own shores" comment.

 

[doug]

More Greek:

When I see that this "Occupy Wall Street" thingy, which supposedly had it's roots in BC (Adbusters)

be supported by The Communist Party of The United States, big labo(u)r, The American Nazi Party,

The Democratic Party - POTUS, Harry Reid, Nancey Pelosi, et al, is it not fair to say that the present

Toronto protest is aided and abetted by similar groups? I am of a mind that the likes of Paula Fletcher,

presently a Toronto City Councilor and a past President of the Communist Party of Canada, would also

be somewhat involved as would ACORN, they now being in not only this fair city, but within the rest of

Canada as well.


Kind (of) regards,
J T

 

[TOareaFan]

Or how about those of us who are unemployed who not only have a Bachelor's degree but also a Masters and have sent out literally hundreds of resumes in the last 18 months with the result being just one interview (which was over the phone)? I'm lucky that in Ontario the government will pay my interest on my $40,000+ student loan until I'm able to pay for it myself, but most people in my situation in other jurisdictions just aren't that lucky. I'm lucky that my partner is working two jobs, otherwise we would most likely be homeless or living in a relatives basement in a small dying town hours away from Toronto. This and what dt_toronto_geek described has sadly become reality for a lot of people. The fact is, we, as a society, can do better.

I have been trying to follow this "occupy 'X' " movement and all I see is a slogan/banner contest with statements like the bolded one above. I really don't hear (confess, I am not glued to it 24 hours a day but I am trying to listen) a single, concrete, meaningful suggestion about how we do better. I was watching Letterman at the end of last week and they had Bill Clinton on and he was asked about the "occupy" movement...he made a point that it is great to speak up/congregate/"demonstrate" but, as he said, at some point you have to be "for" something...not just opposed to "everything".

So far, I don't really see what these groups are "for".

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"More Greek:"
QUOTE doug


No, doug; FACT.


Regards,
J T

 

[jn_12]

I have been trying to follow this "occupy 'X' " movement and all I see is a slogan/banner contest with statements like the bolded one above. I really don't hear (confess, I am not glued to it 24 hours a day but I am trying to listen) a single, concrete, meaningful suggestion about how we do better. I was watching Letterman at the end of last week and they had Bill Clinton on and he was asked about the "occupy" movement...he made a point that it is great to speak up/congregate/"demonstrate" but, as he said, at some point you have to be "for" something...not just opposed to "everything".

So far, I don't really see what these groups are "for".

ya I agree to an extent. I think they've done a good job of establishing a "rich versus the rest of us" message with their "we are the 99%" efforts. It might be the one example of a clear message that these groups have been displaying but I have a feeling this is just the beginning. In the beginning of any movement, unless it's spurred by a drastic event (such as the shooting which started the riots in England, even if that wasn't necessarily a movement, but still a sign of the issues facing British youth) you're going to find it difficult to be on message, particularly when we're talking about a leaderless movement. I think this is still the early days and I don't think anyone really knows what this is going to become and so I don't know if it's important that they be on message today or provide concrete demands.

Now, do i think we're seeing the start of a revolution? I doubt it unless something happens that creates a tipping point, but then again all it takes is one spark.

 

[picard102]

How am I going to buy a $500,000 house if the 1% don't give me their money?!?!?!? Sell my iPhone and HDTV? Doubt it.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"I think they've done a good job of establishing a "rich versus the rest of us" message . . ."
QUOTE jn_12


It's called CLASS WAR.

Remember that, when you are the only one left in the village, the hangman excepted of course.


Regards,
J T

 

[TOareaFan]

ya I agree to an extent. I think they've done a good job of establishing a "rich versus the rest of us" message with their "we are the 99%" efforts. It might be the one example of a clear message that these groups have been displaying but I have a feeling this is just the beginning. In the beginning of any movement, unless it's spurred by a drastic event (such as the shooting which started the riots in England, even if that wasn't necessarily a movement, but still a sign of the issues facing British youth) you're going to find it difficult to be on message, particularly when we're talking about a leaderless movement. I think this is still the early days and I don't think anyone really knows what this is going to become and so I don't know if it's important that they be on message today or provide concrete demands.

Now, do i think we're seeing the start of a revolution? I doubt it unless something happens that creates a tipping point, but then again all it takes is one spark.

It is not that they are, or are not, "on point" as much as I just see a bunch of people waving signs with intentionally clever sayings and repeating platitudes.

So, it is great that they want a change in the economic structure....tell us what change it is and we might agree?

So, it is great that they are opposed to corporate bail outs but, since the only real corporate bail outs we have seen in Canada is the auto industry (who have since repaid their loans) does that mean we should be in favour of unemployment over bail outs?

Protest is great, I guess, but tell us what it is they want and what it is they think we should all want. Right now, to be honest, I get the impression that the hidden words in their main message (1% of the people control the money) are "and I am mad because I am not one of the 1%"

 

[Long Island Mike]

Anyone who thinks wealth inequality is primarily an American problem should take a moment to re-examine David Hulchanski's map that has been making so many waves over the past couple years:

The middle is falling out of Toronto's economy, as it is in most economies in the western world. We're facing a job market that is increasingly split between high paying jobs in the FIRE sector (finance, insurance, and real estate), and unstable, low-wage jobs in the low-end service sector. Furthermore, one of Toronto's last sources of stable, middle-class employment - the public sector - is being dismissed as "gravy" by our own mayor.

Toronto's problems are not caused by "lazy" people who don't want to get jobs. Our problems are rooted in the very structure of our economy.

S&M and Everyone: That comparison map is quite interesting and it shows how the middle class has been gradually priced out of much of Toronto...
This map shows that it is not only major US cities like NYC that this phenomenon has happened in but affects major Canadian cities also...
I find interesting that there are many more "poor" tracts today as compared to 1970...
LI MIKE

 

[Silence&Motion]

Right now, to be honest, I get the impression that the hidden words in their main message (1% of the people control the money) are "and I am mad because I am not one of the 1%"

I disagree completely with that! In all the mixed messages coming from the occupy movement, I can't believe you'd think the underlying message would be "let's keep the massive inequalities, but let me have a chance at being in the top 1%".

Anyway, the movement has already been successful (particularly in the US) in changing the national debate. Does anyone else remember how crazy it was that after financial deregulation sent the global economy into the ground, the right-wing tea party movement somehow framed America's biggest problem as being "too much government"? After the 2010 elections, even Obama seemed to believe that the American people's top priority was cutting government spending and avoiding any major reforms such as health care that would destabilize the country further. Simply putting income inequality and corporate power on the political map is a huge accomplishment. Hopefully the occupy movement can sustain itself long enough to be translated into meaningful reforms. Although the Democrats have not really embraced the movement, they do seem emboldened by the current political climate and are pushing for things like tax hikes on the rich more aggressively than they have in decades. Similar things are unlikely to occur at the Federal level in Canada, but could occur at other levels of governance.

As the occupy activists have said themselves, they're not here to come up with the solutions. The first task is to identify the problems that government and big business have been keeping quite for far too long. Social movements always begin with "platitudes" that help frame the issues. Specific policy solutions come later, but only under the pressure of political mobilization.

 

[jn_12]

"I think they've done a good job of establishing a "rich versus the rest of us" message . . ."
QUOTE jn_12


It's called CLASS WAR.

Remember that, when you are the only one left in the village, the hangman excepted of course.


Regards,
J T

I'm sorry but you're so far off base with your comments that I'm not even sure you understand the connections you're trying to make.

It is not that they are, or are not, "on point" as much as I just see a bunch of people waving signs with intentionally clever sayings and repeating platitudes.

So, it is great that they want a change in the economic structure....tell us what change it is and we might agree?

So, it is great that they are opposed to corporate bail outs but, since the only real corporate bail outs we have seen in Canada is the auto industry (who have since repaid their loans) does that mean we should be in favour of unemployment over bail outs?

Protest is great, I guess, but tell us what it is they want and what it is they think we should all want. Right now, to be honest, I get the impression that the hidden words in their main message (1% of the people control the money) are "and I am mad because I am not one of the 1%"

I also disagree with your last sentence.

I don't think it's difficult to deduce what it is people want from the messages we've heard so far. They want governments to stop pandering to the wealthiest people and corporations and for the 1% (and to be honest, I'd argue this should be the case for everyone) to feel responsible for their fellow citizens. The US is about as plutocratic as it gets, and while Canada isn't at their level, you can still make a compelling argument that we're leaving a lot of people behind due to selfishness. Now, with that said, these protests here in Canada and elsewhere around the world are acts of solidarity with the wall street protests and at least for the one in Toronto, not spurred by anything Canadian. That isn't to say that the Toronto group isn't critical of the Canadian government because they probably are, but more than likely they're supporting the general theme of these protests and nothing specific.

And maybe that's the problem. A lot of people are angry for a lot of different reasons and unlike the middle east protests, there's no specific person or enemy to rally against. They're being very democratic with the way they've organized, which is fine because it's something they believe in, but unfortunately it means that everyone's voice is important, and therefore there isn't any sort of shared voice beyond just a broad theme of discontent. I don't know if a leader needs to emerge or what, but I think it's probably a concern for even the people protesting.

The other problem is, the media has done a horrible job of covering this, which shouldn't be a surprise considering the agendas of the various media outlets. There's a great cartoon that kinda sums that up quite well: