Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)

[Northern Light]

@Rimsky44

I'm happy to answer;

No, I am not an expert in Constitutional law, that's a high bar for a non-lawyer, though I have studied law in a breadth manner, including the constitution and have a degree in Canadian Pol. Sci and in History, and have written papers on it. Still, expert is too elevated to be a fair descriptor; knowledgeable would be fair.

The argument over whether a prima facie rights violation is ultimately unconstituional is really around S.1 (the reasonable limits clause)

S. 1 is commonly used to defend any number of nominal violations of the Charter by any number of laws and regulations.

This is fine, by the way, in my books, its a very sensible Canadian provision that says that our values are key, but they are not immutable, if there is a clear and pressing reason.

To invoke S.1, the Supreme Court has laid out a number of tests; some of the imposed restrictions would certainly pass those tests; others may or may not.
But, and this is important in arguing..........If S.1 is invoked the government is conceding as-of-right, that there is a violation of the Charter, and then relying on S.1 to justify that choice.

It may well be justified (I may wholly support it), but it is still a violation, merely a lawful one.

Now, let me substantiate the above:

This comes from the Federal Justice Department's own website: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art1.html

From the same source:

"Demonstrably justified" connotes a strong evidentiary foundation. Cogent and persuasive evidence is generally required (Oakes, supra). Where scientific or social science evidence is available, it will be required; however, where such evidence is inconclusive, or does not exist and could not be developed, reason and logic may suffice

****

The Oakes Test referenced above, for whether S.1 can be invoked is described below (again this is the Justice Dept website linked above)

There's a good deal more at the link above, but I don't want to offer a multi-page treatise, LOL

Simply info on understanding the Constitution.

FWIW, my read is that public health measures implemented, on their face pass the 1st part of the test.

But some would be seriously challenged with parts of the second branch of Oakes.

Some would pass easily.

 

[zang]

Pat King—organizer of the Freedom Convoy—is a racist POS.

The trucker convoy organizer is an Islamophobic, homophobic conspiracy theorist

A video of Canadian trucker convoy organizer Pat King reveals the extremist core of the protest movement headed for Ottawa.

cultmtl.com

 

[picard102]

What self-satisfied nonsense.

 

[lenaitch]

Pat King—organizer of the Freedom Convoy—is a racist POS.

The trucker convoy organizer is an Islamophobic, homophobic conspiracy theorist

A video of Canadian trucker convoy organizer Pat King reveals the extremist core of the protest movement headed for Ottawa.

cultmtl.com

No doubt the RCMP, Ottawa PS et al are well aware of the main players who may desire a 'Canadian January 6th'.

I'm waiting for GoFundMe to chime in.

 

[Rimsky44]

FWIW, my read is that public health measures implemented, on their face pass the 1st part of the test.

But some would be seriously challenged with parts of the second branch of Oakes.

Some would pass easily.

@Northern Light Awesome - thanks for explaining that. I find statuatory interpretations difficult personally, as the article/paragraph itself doesn't necessarily reflect past precedents, which usually require a detailed database that I have no access to.

And your comments make sense - laws to help public health measures should pass the 1st test. It's for the overall greater good.

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 377123

@Rimsky44

I'm happy to answer;

No, I am not an expert in Constitutional law, that's a high bar for a non-lawyer, though I have studied law in a breadth manner, including the constitution and have a degree in Canadian Pol. Sci and in History, and have written papers on it. Still, expert is too elevated to be a fair descriptor; knowledgeable would be fair.

The argument over whether a prima facie rights violation is ultimately unconstituional is really around S.1 (the reasonable limits clause)

View attachment 377124

S. 1 is commonly used to defend any number of nominal violations of the Charter by any number of laws and regulations.

This is fine, by the way, in my books, its a very sensible Canadian provision that says that our values are key, but they are not immutable, if there is a clear and pressing reason.

To invoke S.1, the Supreme Court has laid out a number of tests; some of the imposed restrictions would certainly pass those tests; others may or may not.
But, and this is important in arguing..........If S.1 is invoked the government is conceding as-of-right, that there is a violation of the Charter, and then relying on S.1 to justify that choice.

It may well be justified (I may wholly support it), but it is still a violation, merely a lawful one.

Now, let me substantiate the above:

View attachment 377125

This comes from the Federal Justice Department's own website: https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art1.html

From the same source:

"Demonstrably justified" connotes a strong evidentiary foundation. Cogent and persuasive evidence is generally required (Oakes, supra). Where scientific or social science evidence is available, it will be required; however, where such evidence is inconclusive, or does not exist and could not be developed, reason and logic may suffice

****

The Oakes Test referenced above, for whether S.1 can be invoked is described below (again this is the Justice Dept website linked above)

View attachment 377126

There's a good deal more at the link above, but I don't want to offer a multi-page treatise, LOL

Simply info on understanding the Constitution.

FWIW, my read is that public health measures implemented, on their face pass the 1st part of the test.

But some would be seriously challenged with parts of the second branch of Oakes.

Some would pass easily.

And to add - as far as I am aware, not single mandate has been successfully challenged in any court, let alone the SCOC. I believe one is in the works towards the BCSC. There have been a few interloculatory applications (to prevent employers implementing policies) and, as far as I know, all have been tossed.

 

[zang]

No doubt the RCMP, Ottawa PS et al are well aware of the main players who may desire a 'Canadian January 6th'.

Why is it, there's *always* someone with a really sketchy past of bigotry intricately involved in all the "freedom" movements we've seen during Covid?

I'm waiting for GoFundMe to chime in.

Unfortunately, the GFM was organized by an outsider, from my understanding. Most likely someone trying to grift on the back of this whole thing, as $1m has already been withdrawn.

 

[gibsonm]

View attachment 377130

Oh it’s Nero again.

 

[mergli416]

My guess is that you’re not dealing with managing pandemic protocols in frontline work every day. Being in a bubble means not having to work in the trenches where the results of restrictions are experienced directly. I can tell you that most workers (including everyone I work with) are burnt out from implementing these policies and are more frustrated by the inane mindless bureaucracy than they are by being worried about serious illness from Omicron.

Come talk to my husband who works in a hospital or my sister-in-law who's a nurse and ask them how burnt out they are; about the tremendous stress they've been experiencing for the past almost 2 years, how they feel about the bullying, the reckless patients they see daily, the horrific images of dying patients they will never forget! And what? You're bummed because you can't go to a restaurant or because you have to wear a mask? Give me a break.

 

[Johnny Au]

The QAnon movement has a very strong foothold in Canada with the freedumb convoy:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Qult_Headquarters/comments/sf2l8d

Yes, QAnon is at its core anti-semitic.

 

[gibsonm]

And to add - as far as I am aware, not single mandate has been successfully challenged in any court, let alone the SCOC. I believe one is in the works towards the BCSC. There have been a few interloculatory applications (to prevent employers implementing policies) and, as far as I know, al

Come talk to my husband who works in a hospital or my sister-in-law who's a nurse and ask them how burnt out they are; about the tremendous stress they've been experiencing for the past almost 2 years, how they feel about the bullying, the reckless patients they see daily, the horrific images of dying patients they will never forget! And what? You're bummed because you can't go to a restaurant or because you have to wear a mask? Give me a break.

Have you asked them why they’re burnt out, I mean actually inquired?

Also, what’s with the QAnon stuff? Why are people talking about conspiracy theories?

Any oppression that is being questioned by a few posters on here is in plain sight. No need to query mysterious causes.

 

[gibsonm]

Mandate Freedom

 

[zang]

Have you asked them why they’re burnt out, I mean actually inquired?

Myself, I have several friends working in frontline health care (the true “frontline”; you seem to use that word rather liberally), interacting with Covid patients every day.

It’s not having to wear a mask at the grocery store or not being able to see a movie that’s burning them out.

It’s the hospital Director of Bariatric Surgery who’s now working 18 hour days dealing entirely with Covid patients, when she’s not volunteering for vaccine clinics. She’s missed the better part of two years of her pre-teen daughter’s life over this s#it, and routinely shows admiration and gratefulness for her husband willing to act nearly as sole-parent to his step-daughter.

Or it’s the nurse living in a small conservative town where the people have an absurd collective notion that Covid is a “big-city” thing and hasn’t taken restrictions very seriously. Herself an asthmatic with lifelong lung problems, she caught Covid from work last year and has suffered with Long Covid since, as well as a post-infection diagnosis of POTS (cases of POTS have jumped dramatically since the pandemic). She’s still also working 14-18 hours a day, and grateful that as a single mom, her child is a teenager and able to care for himself. She’s still going in to work, despite the fatigue of Long Covid and the effed up heart rate of POTS.

It’s not even just the frontline healthcare workers who’re pissed off at the public not following restrictions. I’ve another friend who worked as an admin in a neurology clinic, who’s been reassigned to a hospital ward to cover shortages, and since the pandemic has had to work up to three positions at once. I’m not sure she wants to continue this line of work much longer. Her own risk of Covid has jumped as she’s being put closer and closer to the frontline as the healthcare system is having to throw everyone and everything at the raging dumpster fire of indignant unvaccinated jackholes clogging up the system.

Also, what’s with the QAnon stuff? Why are people talking about conspiracy theories?

You literally mentioned Trudeau keeping the pandemic restrictions going simply because we have a big stockpile of PPE and drug contracts.

Any oppression that is being questioned by a few posters on here is in plain sight. No need to query mysterious causes.

Well, first off, you have yet to define any actual oppression. I can claim visiting an elementary school naked is oppression, but it really isn’t.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Myself, I have several friends working in frontline health care (the true “frontline”; you seem to use that word rather liberally), interacting with Covid patients every day.

It’s not having to wear a mask at the grocery store or not being able to see a movie that’s burning them out.

It’s the hospital Director of Bariatric Surgery who’s now working 18 hour days dealing entirely with Covid patients, when she’s not volunteering for vaccine clinics. She’s missed the better part of two years of her pre-teen daughter’s life over this s#it, and routinely shows admiration and gratefulness for her husband willing to act nearly as sole-parent to his step-daughter.

Or it’s the nurse living in a small conservative town where the people have an absurd collective notion that Covid is a “big-city” thing and hasn’t taken restrictions very seriously. Herself an asthmatic with lifelong lung problems, she caught Covid from work last year and has suffered with Long Covid since, as well as a post-infection diagnosis of POTS (cases of POTS have jumped dramatically since the pandemic). She’s still also working 14-18 hours a day, and grateful that as a single mom, her child is a teenager and able to care for himself. She’s still going in to work, despite the fatigue of Long Covid and the effed up heart rate of POTS.

It’s not even just the frontline healthcare workers who’re pissed off at the public not following restrictions. I’ve another friend who worked as an admin in a neurology clinic, who’s been reassigned to a hospital ward to cover shortages, and since the pandemic has had to work up to three positions at once. I’m not sure she wants to continue this line of work much longer. Her own risk of Covid has jumped as she’s being put closer and closer to the frontline as the healthcare system is having to throw everyone and everything at the raging dumpster fire of indignant unvaccinated jackholes clogging up the system.


You literally mentioned Trudeau keeping the pandemic restrictions going simply because we have a big stockpile of PPE and drug contracts.


Well, first off, you have yet to define any actual oppression. I can claim visiting an elementary school naked is oppression, but it really isn’t.

If we're holding society hostage to our healthcare system, maybe we should rethink our healthcare ...

 

[zang]

If we're holding society hostage to our healthcare system, maybe we should rethink our healthcare ...

If we're validating the feelings of random retail workers dislike of restrictions, maybe we should validate those who're actually having to deal with the pandemic head on?