Novel Coronavirus COVID-19 (nCoV-2019)

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, correct, the point it it is a welcoming and a step in the right direction, albeit a late one
That is why we're so behind in vaccination rates

I argue this step is pretty meaningless in and on itself - and wouldn't have done much if even it had been undertaken and in place prior to the pandemic. At issue is that none of the viable COVID vaccine candidates are made here, and there is no good way to predict which vaccine candidate would have worked. What we would have needed is an exemplar research program that stands a good chance of producing viable vaccine candidates coupled with domestic production facilities. That requires decadal investment - not a catch-up program starting only after we had a pandemic.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Fair point. Other nations tend to play that card more than we do.


Fair point as well, although as I understand it, not all of the vaccines currently in circulation are the new RNA-based technology but are the more 'traditional' types (he said not knowing the first thing about vaccines). It is possible that a biomedical facility of any type might be more capable of ramping up than one starting from scratch.

Forecasting is always going to be a bit of a Mug's Game. The challenge has always been to monetize or commercialize applied clinical research. Having industry do it can be a minefield, like where we have seen allegations of the oil and gas industry in the US funding environmental research.

I suppose if we could ironclad an equity stake in the related for-profit industry that public money backstops then it could work but imagine it is a often a competitive market; we want 10% but country B offers five and we seem to have difficulty enforcing such conditions if the company simply pulls up stakes after the cheque clears.

Yes, I think only Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA based - but that wouldn't matter if we don't even have the capacity/will to come up with alternates and do so quickly (because what's good about producing a vaccine that works 2, 3 years afterwards when you can just buy ones from say Pfizer that is just as good, if not better way before that?). What we need is a public research institute that can churn out vaccine candidates and test them - and leverage pharma for production of viable vaccines.

I can almost understand why partnership with China is so appealing - China does have a reputation of getting things done quickly. The problem with that take is that it will always be an uneven/unequal partnership to our detriment.

AoD

 

[karledice]

I argue this step is pretty meaningless in and on itself - and wouldn't have done much if even it had been undertaken and in place prior to the pandemic. At issue is that none of the viable COVID vaccine candidates are made here, and there is no good way to predict which vaccine candidate would have worked. What we would have needed is an exemplar research program that stands a good chance of producing viable vaccine candidates coupled with domestic production facilities. That requires decadal investment - not a catch-up program starting only after we had a pandemic.

AoD

Would it be better if the government doesn't do anything to help domestic production?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Would it be better if the government doesn't do anything to help domestic production?

It would be better if the government plan out and commit to what it wanted to achieve before throwing money around half-heartedly for the sake of optics (which is what this announcement is - throwing money out that looks sort of like it will theoretically help someday - in response to the current issue, which it absolutely will not help, other than for the average person who doesn't analyze what this actually meant). We already have domestic production of vaccines - we don't have domestic production and IP for the right vaccine. What good would that do if it remains the issue next time? What good will it do if we can only fill and finish for vaccines made by others and be subjected to the same potential export conditions?

AoD

 

[karledice]

It would be better if the government plan out and commit to what it wanted to achieve before throwing money around half-heartedly for the sake of optics (which is what this announcement is - throwing money out that looks sort of like it will theoretically help someday - in response to the current issue, which it does not help). We already have domestic production of vaccines - we don't have domestic production and IP for the right vaccine. What good would that do if it remains the issue next time? What good will it do if we can only fill and finish for vaccines made by others and be subjected to the same potential export conditions?

AoD

OK that is a fair statement. that's why I think this is at least going in the right direction
Our government is very slow and somewhat far behind peers in G7...so I can't wait to hear when the other plans will come into light
Maybe when COVID is over

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

OK that is a fair statement. that's why I think this is at least going in the right direction
Our government is very slow and somewhat far behind peers in G7...so I can't wait to hear when the other plans will come into light
Maybe when COVID is over

Right now the only G7 countries we are truly far behind is US and UK (both with domestic capacity - mind you UK used AZ - where the IP of the vaccine is generated (Oxford) and the company is based - mostly). Diplomatically we probably did as well as we can - especially given the tensions around vaccination rates at EU, where we get our vaccines. For all of JT's (real and perceived) failing, I don't think vaccine procurement as a non-vaccine producing state is the main issue. It is a convenient one.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Now - let me go even further and say that there is a rather Canadian arrogance to this vaccine situation. Let's laid it out here:

1. We do not produce any COVID vaccine yet - either through IP nor through actual production.
2. We do not want certain vaccines (from China, Russia) - with good reasons
3. We want vaccines from produced in Europe (and India, through AZ), since US is not allowing export
4. We know vaccines are in short supply in the EU and India - and they (especially in the case of EU) can limit/stop export to us, but didn't.

So why do we think we deserves the privilege of being vaccinated at a faster and higher level than even before those who actually produce the vaccines - because surely their citizens are not as deserving - and berate our public officials for not matching the US and UK - when we don't even produce a single vaccine ourselves? Just because we want the freedom from the spectre of disease and the freedom to live our lives without restraint. We wanted benefit - without commensurate responsibilities.

When you think about this - it is about as Canadian as butting into a queue.

AoD

 

[Jonny5]

I argue this step is pretty meaningless in and on itself - and wouldn't have done much if even it had been undertaken and in place prior to the pandemic. At issue is that none of the viable COVID vaccine candidates are made here, and there is no good way to predict which vaccine candidate would have worked. What we would have needed is an exemplar research program that stands a good chance of producing viable vaccine candidates coupled with domestic production facilities. That requires decadal investment - not a catch-up program starting only after we had a pandemic.

AoD

This is exactly right, but as someone I read said recently, "the global vaccine supply chain has its own separate global supply chain of components." Some of these vaccines have several dozen components in them, all of which are themselves sourced from all over the world. You can make all the late stage production plants in Canada you want, but they will still be starved of the raw materials when they are really needed. If you want the entire supply chain from basic components to final product shifted internally, that's fine, but there will be an enormous annual expense for it payable each and every year indefinitely, and no private business is picking that up. It really is a pipe dream unless you want to throw a lot of money at it, but not really necessary if we would be decisive with precautions. It's a fantasy peddled by politicians for a quick win on outdated nationalism. It's no different than Jason Kenney saying if he's elected there will be "pipelines full of Alberta oil built everywhere!"

 

[Jonny5]

In happier news... 60+ is the new 65+

https://twitter.com/x/status/1377325557986291718

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

This is exactly right. As someone I read said recently, "the global vaccine supply chain has its own separate global supply chain of components." Some of these vaccines have several dozen components in them, all of which are themselves sourced from all over the world. You can make all the late stage production plants in Canada you want, but they will still be starved of the raw materials when they are really needed. If you want the entire supply chain from basic components to final product shifted internally, that's fine, but there will be an enormous annual expense to that which is payable each and every year indefinitely, and no private business is picking that up. It's really a pipe dream and, actually, not even necessary. It's a fantasy peddled by politicians for a quick win on outdated nationalism. It's no different than Jason Kenney saying if he's elected there will be "pipelines full of Alberta oil built everywhere!"

The capacity to do that depends on the size of the country - US probably can, EU as a bloc probably can, China probably can. Canada on its' own? Probably not. Having said that we should focus on what really matters - the IP. Being able to generate the IP for a viable vaccine - and do so quickly is leverage.

AoD

 

[W. K. Lis]

Humber River Hospital had moved their vaccinations over to the Downsview Arena (1633 Wilson Ave., south side, west of Jane Street).

Had my first Pfizer dose today. Got my candy for being a good boy grandfather and not crying. No lineup. No waiting, except for the 15 minutes after the shot.

My photos...

 

[christiesplits]

If the long lineups at Loblaws and carts full of turkeys and Easter bunnies are any indication, we are in for a third wave.

 

[gabe]

If Ford kept restrictions in place in the entire province till after Easter, we may not be in the mess we are now. He was in a big hurry to move parts of the province to orange, yellow and even green.

Ford says 'stay tuned' for announcement Thursday as Ontario's COVID-19 ICU admissions hit new high​

Admissions of COVID-19 patients to Ontario's intensive care units (ICUs) have surpassed the previous pandemic high, a government agency that tracks hospitalizations said Wednesday, as the province reported another 2,333 cases of the virus.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...rch-31-2021-icu-admissions-new-high-1.5970884

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If Ford kept restrictions in place in the entire province till after Easter, we may not be in the mess we are now. He was in a big hurry to move parts of the province to orange, yellow and even green.

Ford says 'stay tuned' for announcement Thursday as Ontario's COVID-19 ICU admissions hit new high​

Admissions of COVID-19 patients to Ontario's intensive care units (ICUs) have surpassed the previous pandemic high, a government agency that tracks hospitalizations said Wednesday, as the province reported another 2,333 cases of the virus.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...rch-31-2021-icu-admissions-new-high-1.5970884

Not only moving the province to the different levels - but creating exceptions to the existing levels as well (grey isn't quite grey). The sum total of the provincial message is an exercise in obfuscation.

AoD

 

[Towered]

Not only moving the province to the different levels - but creating exceptions to the existing levels as well (grey isn't quite grey). The sum total of the provincial message is an exercise in obfuscation.

AoD

The question is - will we make him pay at the polls in a year's time?