North Yonge development (York): Is Toronto a "NIMBY" to its northern neighbours?

[jaycola]

I recently read here there was a meeting being held to discuss Toronto's "Yonge Street North Planning Study". I scoured the city pages but could find little other than requests for tender regarding the study.

What I did find however, was a document of "comment's" by Toronto staff on the official plans adopted by Vaughan and proposed by Markham . Here is the document.

In reading the document, Toronto comes off as the nattering neighbour complaining that a fence is too high.

From the document

SUMMARY
The City of Vaughan has requested comments on a draft new Official Plan for the City.
The Plan provides for extensive development on the north side of Steeles Avenue and
also in the Yonge corridor north of Steeles Avenue. This development is premised on
extending the Spadina subway to Highway 7, extending the Yonge subway or providing
other rapid transit on Yonge Street up to Highway 7 and providing higher order transit
along Steeles Avenue. While the Spadina extension is fully committed, the Yonge
extension has not yet received any funding commitment and is not high priority for the
City and the TTC; and the higher order transit on Steeles is even less of a priority.
Until there is a commitment to funding transit improvements in the Yonge and Steeles
Corridors, Toronto needs assurance that development in these corridors will not have an
adverse impact on Toronto’s services and infrastructure.

... Council direct staff to continue discussions with Vaughan staff to ensure that the
draft Vaughan Official Plan will provide certainty to the City of Toronto that
development in the Steeles corridor and in the Yonge-Steeles Secondary Plan will
not have an adverse impact on the City’s services and infrastructure;

Vaughan and Markham are, in keeping with regional and provincial directives, planning an "urban growth centre" along the key transportation corridors of Yonge and Steeles where the development will have least effect on established neighbourhoods.

Rather than working with the neighbouring municipalities to create a well connected city centre shared by the three cities, Toronto is looking to obstructing the cities in their development plans. Toronto should be planning it's growth along this valuable gateway to the city, not turning it's back on it's neighbours and obstructing plans for urban growth.

Yonge and Steeles Redevelopment - City of Vaughan

Yonge and Steeles Redevelopment - City of Markham

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

jaycola:

All I can suggest is that you take the Yonge subway southbound during rush hour at say, oh Eglinton. I have a feeling your perspective might run a bit differently.

AoD

 

[jaycola]

That is precisely the NIMBY attitude I am speaking about.

"NIMBY is also used more generally to describe people who advocate some proposal , but oppose implementing it in a way that would require sacrifice on their part."

Toronto is advocating urban development within it's borders but want's to block plans for that same urbanization on it's borders?

York Region population is predicted to grow by an amount equal to Toronto over the next 20 years. York Region's population will increase by 62% while Toronto's increase will be 23%. Toronto needs to accept that growth in York Region will have an effect on the city services and infrastructure and needs to implement plans now to deal with these pressures. Toronto can't build a wall across Steeles. Development will occur in York Region and this location is the most likely for creating a successful Urban core.

Source

York Region's population is one of the fastest growing and most diversified in all of Canada. In 1971, the year of its creation, York Region's population was 169,000. Between 1996 and 2001 York Region had become the fastest growing Census Division in the country. In 2006, York Region's population accounted for 16.9% of the Greater Toronto Area's (GTA) population estimated at 5.6 million. As of
December 31, 2007, the Region's population was estimated to be 983,056. By 2031 the Region's population is projected to reach an astounding 1.5 million people.

 

[sixrings]

so now its nimbyism to not support a subway extension that would clearly be detrimental to your own city. nimbyism to me is the people at yonge and eglinton, a major transit intersection being against high rise development. Or nimbyism is torontonians against elevated transit on eglinton through big box stores and industrial parks which clearly wouldnt effect many if any residents. Nimbyism is when someone moves into a 50 floor building only to learn that another 50 floor building is going to be built and ruin its view, so the person protests that the area is already to dense. Nimbyism to me is when people oppose something that clearly makes sense because they believe it will have a negative effect on their property or way of life. Btw i dont think a subway expansion which is going to further cripple a over capacity subway line is in the best interest of the majority of people who use the yonge line. if a drl was built it would be a different story.

also fyi if toronto had the balls it could build a wall around its city dividing it from the 905. not a physical wall but a toll wall which would toll every vehicle coming into and leaving the city. as a toronto resident id gladly pay a toll the few times i visit the country.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

jaycola:

"NIMBY is also used more generally to describe people who advocate some proposal , but oppose implementing it in a way that would require sacrifice on their part."
Toronto is advocating urban development within it's borders but want's to block plans for that same urbanization on it's borders?

No, NIMBYism are often irrational responses for supposed negative effects that aren't quantifiable. In this case, subway capacity is finite and will have a definite deleterious effects within the City of Toronto. If that's NIMBYism, you would have no problem if someone decide to put an abattoir right beside where you live - or on that matter, a working nuclear reactor. The City didn't advocate or not advocate for York Region's proposal - so the latter point is moot.

York Region population is predicted to grow by an amount equal to Toronto over the next 20 years. York Region's population will increase by 62% while Toronto's increase will be 23%. Toronto needs to accept that growth in York Region will have an effect on the city services and infrastructure and needs to implement plans now to deal with these pressures. Toronto can't build a wall across Steeles. Development will occur in York Region and this location is the most likely for creating a successful Urban core.

Then York region or the province should pay for the infrastructural improvements to enable such growth. Just like York Region pays the City for using and extending the water supply.

Besides, the way it was worded is very neutral - that's what any municipality - not just Toronto would do with regards to these cross-boundary issues.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

i also question alot of 905 growth expectations. now that these areas are predominately building condos townhouses and semis i dont see the appeal of 905. toronto has many areas which will be developed into similar developments and be much closer to the city. downsview park redevelopment, lawrench heights redevelopment, the area around don mills and sheppard, west don lands, regent park redevelopment, liberty village and west of it. traffic no matter what we do is still going to get worse and more expensive. as a result people are going to want to live closer to the city. i understand the crazy commute for a mcmansion but im confused why one would choose the crazy commute for a condo or townhouse.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

sixrings:

That's another issue entirely - and at least they are looking at densification, which is a laudable goal.

AoD

 

[sixrings]

sixrings:

That's another issue entirely - and at least they are looking at densification, which is a laudable goal.

AoD

i totally agree and i am happy every time o go visit the in laws who live right beside square one. i just dont know how sustainable it is. vaighan is basically predicting to catch up on mcc simply because of the subway extension. thats a great goal and maybe it will be obtainable. i just dont see why toronto should be going out of its way to help via subways the 905 when its own people cant get on the system because of over crowding.

 

[jaycola]

This isn't just about the subway. It's about York Region placing urban development in places where they make sense. It's about curbing sprawl, creating urban centres and accommodating population and employment growth in places where they can be successful.Be it BRT, LRT or surface buses, there are going to be more people living and working in this area. The intersection of Yonge and Steeles represent the best opportunity for Markham and Vaughan to work together in creating an urban core. Toronto, having ownership over two of the 4 corners should be actively working with the neighbouring cities to create an urban centre here.

 

[k10ery]

That is precisely the NIMBY attitude I am speaking about.

"NIMBY is also used more generally to describe people who advocate some proposal , but oppose implementing it in a way that would require sacrifice on their part."

Toronto is advocating urban development within it's borders but want's to block plans for that same urbanization on it's borders?

York Region population is predicted to grow by an amount equal to Toronto over the next 20 years. York Region's population will increase by 62% while Toronto's increase will be 23%. Toronto needs to accept that growth in York Region will have an effect on the city services and infrastructure and needs to implement plans now to deal with these pressures. Toronto can't build a wall across Steeles. Development will occur in York Region and this location is the most likely for creating a successful Urban core.

Source

The 905 cities want to free ride on the economic advantages created by Toronto, and steal its business tax base by undercutting its tax rates. We can already see the difference in development between north of Steeles and south of Steeles. Why let it get any worse?

I guess you could call that NIMBYism. But in this case the neighbour's building plans are going to undermine the foundations of my house. Of course I'm a NIMBY!

 

[sixrings]

BUild Me a DRL and Ill let you build you build your subway to 905.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

This isn't just about the subway. It's about York Region placing urban development in places where they make sense. It's about curbing sprawl, creating urban centres and accommodating population and employment growth in places where they can be successful.Be it BRT, LRT or surface buses, there are going to be more people living and working in this area. The intersection of Yonge and Steeles represent the best opportunity for Markham and Vaughan to work together in creating an urban core. Toronto, having ownership over two of the 4 corners should be actively working with the neighbouring cities to create an urban centre here.

And yet Vaughan did not see it fit to build it's new City Hall and new hospital in any of these new "Centres" (read VCC, RHC, Yonge/Steeles, or even Jane/Steeles). They represented a clear opportunity to begin redevelopment of these lands and encourage other developers to build there. Instead the build the city hall and hospital way out in the middle of sprawl. While I applaud Vaughan's attempt at intensification, I sometimes question some of their own planning decisions.

 

[canarob]

BUild Me a DRL and Ill let you build you build your subway to 905.

As much as I want the subway extended into Markham, I agree that building an eastern DRL to Pape (or preferaby Don Mills) should be a priority.

As far as I know, this is the only case in the history of the GTA (or Canada?) where we won't build new transit because too many people would use it. In truth, I'm not sure how many more people will use the subway as opposed to taking VIVA or driving to Finch. The only real difference would be that major developments like Richmond Hill Centre and Langstaff might be slowed down because the infrastructure wouldn't be there to support it.

Also, of course York Region would pay its share, just like it does for TTC buses and is doing for the extension to Vaughan. Any suggestion that York Region wouldn't have to pay anything for the extension is ridiculous. Whether or not what YR pays is a “fair share” is another matter though (I haven't heard anything to suggest it doesn't, but I'm not well versed in the numbers involved).

 

[sixrings]

THE DRL and the Yonge extension could be built at the same time as long as all three levels of government would agree. Im also going to assume the DRL goes all the way to Eglinton.

 

[canarob]

i also question alot of 905 growth expectations. now that these areas are predominately building condos townhouses and semis i dont see the appeal of 905. toronto has many areas which will be developed into similar developments and be much closer to the city. downsview park redevelopment, lawrench heights redevelopment, the area around don mills and sheppard, west don lands, regent park redevelopment, liberty village and west of it. traffic no matter what we do is still going to get worse and more expensive. as a result people are going to want to live closer to the city. i understand the crazy commute for a mcmansion but im confused why one would choose the crazy commute for a condo or townhouse.

Why do you assume that the entire GTA works at Bay and King? More people commute into Markham each day than out of it (much of it from the rest of the 905 and Scarborough, but you get my point).

Also, the appeal of places like Markham does go beyond having a giant house. People genuinely do like many of the neighbourhoods (I admit that some parts of town are terrible). Lots of people would rather have a condo or townhouse in Markham than a condo in Liberty Village or a townhouse in Downsview.