Noisy Condo Tenants

[Tacoma]

While walking my dog last Sunday I ran into my Dental Hygienist whom I've known for years who moved from a nearby apartment to an older condo in my neighbourhood last fall. We chatted for a while, she and her sister bought the place and love it with one exception, a neighbour above who comes home from wherever in the middle of the night and stomps around for a few hours, often in high heels keeping them awake. She told me that they went through the usual complaint process to the Property Manager including calling security as a witness to the noise with no improvement. They were referred to the BoD who pursued the matter with a letter, again no results. The BoD had to contact the Corporation's lawyer who wrote a letter about the matter, still no improvement. What they had to resort to was putting a lien on the owner's condo above until they either remove the hardwood and install proper noise buffering material or install carpet. If the owner refuses to comply within the time period stated the BoD will take final action by contracting out the job and forcibly entering the suite to remedy the problem the best way that they see fit and defer all costs (including legal) to the owner of the condo above.
I write this story because there are remedies to problems whether it's partying young renters every weekend or neighbours interfering with the quiet enjoyment of another residents. You just have to fight the fight and not remain passive about the matter, chances are if you are in the right you will win the battle.

I think your story actually supports AGTO's contention as much it does yours. My 2 cents is I think no one here disputes that the BOD doesn't have the authority, but rather to the degree in which the board uses that authority is sometimes questionable, and the amount of time and effort involved jumping through hoops, involving lawyers to reach settlement - which in some cases is more jumping than is acceptable to a unit holder thus, in effect, making the board and the dispute process "useless" to them for practical purposes.

So, in your story, the dental hygienist had an effective BOD but still it took a lot of jumping through hoops, including a lien and threat of forcible entry - and she may still be fighting this as your story ended at the lien stage without any resolution. If there was a happy ending, you've yet to tell it. Imagine if the BOD was ineffective and this would be even more of a huge headache.

I live in a house so no dog in this fight, but if I had to go through what the hygienist went through, I'd be pretty fed up at the whole process and be looking to move out ASAP. Indeed this is what PIX and AGTO himself (assume he's a he!) have apparently done. While I agree that no one should be passive in these cases, based on thread, I can't imagine that AGTO is a passive person! AGTO may be overly blunt, but I'm kinda seeing his point.

 

[AGTO]

I've been fighting this for 7 years. I've been in contact with the board and property managers....still nothing.
A year ago, the director of the board told me, in writing, that a business can make as much noise as they want, 24/7, while a resident cannot.
At that point I realised that the board will jump through hoops in order to avoid doing anything meaningful.
I've been patient, persistent and polite, and now I'm done.

 

[daveto]

I agree with you.I am totally helpless. There is absolutely no governing body overseeing condo legislation, thus no-one to answer to. Boards can, and will do, whatever they want.
I made the (extremely tough) decision yesterday morning when my new neighbour told me to expect at least 6 weeks of construction noise, 7 days a week, followed by very loud, daily, photography sessions (consisting of 15 to 20 people, and very loud music)....7 days a week.
He was also asking me to pay for soundproofing, so that he can sleep during his off times! I chuckled.
Now I'm frantically looking for a detached home...anywhere!

Sometimes you have to fight fire w fire. If it were me, having tried to be nice, I'd make sure that whenever I'm not home to leave speakers pointed at the most strategic part of your shared wall playing the most obnoxious yet permissible thing I could find (...maybe download some gay porn? or some bizarre tribal world music....either of those will make your point rather forceably...lol)

 

[AGTO]

I'd make sure that whenever I'm not home to leave speakers pointed at the most strategic part of your shared wall playing the most obnoxious yet permissible thing I could find

I hate to admit it , but I've already done this. This is when the director of the board told me that I wasn't allowed to make any noise, just the businesses. I actually registered my little business to "satisfy their requirements".

 

[daveto]

I hate to admit it , but I've already done this. This is when the director of the board told me that I wasn't allowed to make any noise, just the businesses. I actually registered my little business to "satisfy their requirements".

lol...genius.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

I think your story actually supports AGTO's contention as much it does yours. My 2 cents is I think no one here disputes that the BOD doesn't have the authority, but rather to the degree in which the board uses that authority is sometimes questionable, and the amount of time and effort involved jumping through hoops, involving lawyers to reach settlement - which in some cases is more jumping than is acceptable to a unit holder thus, in effect, making the board and the dispute process "useless" to them for practical purposes.

So, in your story, the dental hygienist had an effective BOD but still it took a lot of jumping through hoops, including a lien and threat of forcible entry - and she may still be fighting this as your story ended at the lien stage without any resolution. If there was a happy ending, you've yet to tell it. Imagine if the BOD was ineffective and this would be even more of a huge headache.

I live in a house so no dog in this fight, but if I had to go through what the hygienist went through, I'd be pretty fed up at the whole process and be looking to move out ASAP. Indeed this is what PIX and AGTO himself (assume he's a he!) have apparently done. While I agree that no one should be passive in these cases, based on thread, I can't imagine that AGTO is a passive person! AGTO may be overly blunt, but I'm kinda seeing his point.

They got an amazing deal on a 1400 sq. ft. "fixer-upper" at the northern end of the Village and they absolutely love the building, location and amenities so they chose to stand their ground and fight. I say good for them.
I get my teeth descaled next week, I'll get an update from her as to where things are at now.

 

[ACE]

.

 

[origin]

There's only one way to solve these types of problems - call the police every single day the problem occurs. Every day. Don't bother with telling the building or board. Call the police, they are obligated to come and knock on these people's doors and charge them. It will get very expensive for them in fines after a while.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

There's only one way to solve these types of problems - call the police every single day the problem occurs. Every day. Don't bother with telling the building or board. Call the police, they are obligated to come and knock on these people's doors and charge them. It will get very expensive for them in fines after a while.

The police can often take hours to arrive and they will want a statement from you before they go up and talk to the noise offenders which means you have to stay up until they arrive.

There was a crack apartment a few years back one floor down from me. I live right next to the east stairwell where the purchasers would go and smoke the stuff, have sex, fight - all kinds of noise. Been there, done that.

 

[Jaguar4u]

Thank-you for this

Anyone who is having problems with noisy neighbours should slip a copy of this story under their door.
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Toronto Star
Dec 20, 2008 04:30 AM
Comments on this story (6)
Bob Aaron

A decision of the Superior Court of Justice in Toronto earlier this year clarifies the huge financial risks a condominium owner assumes if he or she is found to be in breach of the rules of the corporation.

Anthony Italiano bought a Toronto condominium unit on Marine Parade Dr. in October 2006. Before taking possession, he obtained permission from the condominium corporation to install laminate hardwood flooring in his home. Shortly after he moved in, the corporation received noise complaints from the owners of two units beside and underneath his own.

In early 2007, building security visited Italiano's unit and reported that the sound coming from inside was "loud." Building management contacted the condominium lawyers who sent a letter demanding that the noise cease. An arbitration between the parties took place in August 2007. At the hearing, Italiano requested that the common element walls of his unit be tested for deficiencies which might account for the transmission of noise.

Several months later, an independent acoustics report was delivered to the arbitrator. It concluded that the sound transmission material in the building complied with the Ontario Building Code standard, "although, barely."

In early January this year, the arbitrator concluded that Italiano's unit "had been a frequent source of noise that was annoying, disruptive and constituted a nuisance to other occupants in the building." As well, "there was overwhelming evidence" that the unit "was a frequent source of unacceptable noise generated at all hours of the night and day in total and callous disregard for the welfare of others."

Other than referring to the installation of hardwood flooring, the published court decision does not make clear what kind of noise was coming from Italiano's unit.

The arbitrator ruled that Italiano had breached various sections of the condominium's declaration and rules and ordered that he comply with them.

As well, he ordered that Italiano pay a total of $81,865.07 in costs to the condominium corporation. Included in the award were the arbitrator's fees of more than $35,000, and legal fees of $39,000 for the condominium's lawyer.

In July, Italiano asked the Ontario Superior Court for permission to appeal the arbitration award against him. Other than a reduction in costs by slightly more than $4,000, his application was dismissed.

In the spring of this year, a certificate of lien was registered on the title to Italiano's unit to secure the costs order of $77,762.57. This registration means that the unit cannot be sold or refinanced without paying the amount owed to the condominium corporation.

By law, a condominium corporation has the right to sell a liened unit under a Power of Sale in order to recover the amount owing to it. After paying off any outstanding mortgage, taxes, common expenses and other debts, the condominium gets to keep any surplus up to the amount owing under the lien.

In my practice, I have found not all condominium corporations are as aggressive as this one in attempting to ensure peace and quiet for its unit owners. Often, noise and other issues can be resolved in a meeting among the parties involved, without resorting to expensive mediation and arbitration proceedings.

I have also found that few unit owners are willing to push those proceedings to the extent that tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs are incurred. Residing in a condominium is an exercise in community living. Boards are elected to implement and enforce rules so that all owners can enjoy their units in peace and quiet.

The Italiano case also provides a valuable lesson for purchasers of new construction and resale condominiums. If you're buying from a builder, get the floor and wall sound transmission specifications in writing. If you're buying resale, check it out yourself. Or buy earplugs.

Bob Aaron is a Toronto real estate lawyer and board member of the Tarion Warranty Corp. He can be reached at bob@aaron.ca.

Thanks for this article

 

[ducati0000]

I was wondering if you have a constant problem with neighbors who throw items off the top floor balcony and the landlords does nothing to control them and police only warns them would be a good idea to have a lawyer send them (tenant and landlord) threatening them with a lawsuit if the tenants damage or causes injuries with the items they throw down (beer cans,smoke butts,etc,etc).....landlord doesnt care,he gets paid on time,tenants are changing every months since they sub lease to friends when school is over.We try talking to them and they say they be more "careful" but they keep on doing it.

 

[AGTO]

You probably knew that your building attracted these types of tennants, but were "were hopping you were wrong didnt you "?

 

[PIX]

I have finally moved into my new semi-detached townhouse after selling my Cityplace condo a year ago because neighbors above me were very noisy. I went with the $4,000 "Quiet Zone" soundproofing upgrade from the builder to allow me peace and quiet from the single communal wall. Unfortunately the soundproofing solution is non-effective. I'm back to the same situation as in the condo I sold -which I really loved

I can hear:
chairs
cooking
vacuuming
walking on floor/stairs
music

Is this soundproofing upgrade covered under my new home warranty? Do I have any options in the matter?

The builder is no help (transcript of email communication at bottom).
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Hi Danny,

Sheila has forwarded me your email as your home has closed and are within the warranty stages of your home purchase experience. We have confirmed with the site office, that the quiet zone option has been installed in your home and you have received the upgraded insulation in the wall between your unit and your neighbors.

Although the insulation is a great option of decreasing noise between units, unfortunately it doesn't eliminate all sources of noise. Loud speakers, particularly from the bass of the music, heavy walking, doors slamming and/or moving can cause subtle vibrations in the materials used in your home which can translate into noise.

I regret that we cannot be of any further assistance.

Jen

Jennifer Khan
Manager, Service & Process Improvement

Brookfield Homes (Ontario) Limited
7303 Warden Avenue, Suite 100, Markham, ON L3R 5Y6
T 905.948.5016 F 905.477.9001

2010 Ontario Home Builder of the Year – Tarion and OHBA

 

[cdr108]

I have finally moved into my new semi-detached townhouse after selling my Cityplace condo a year ago because neighbors above me were very noisy. I went with the $4,000 "Quiet Zone" soundproofing upgrade from the builder to allow me peace and quiet from the single communal wall. Unfortunately the soundproofing solution is non-effective. I'm back to the same situation as in the condo I sold -which I really loved

I can hear:
chairs
cooking
vacuuming
walking on floor/stairs
music

Is this soundproofing upgrade covered under my new home warranty? Do I have any options in the matter?

The builder is no help (transcript of email communication at bottom).
------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry, i'm a bit confused if you're living in a semi-detached or a townhouse since you listed both ... unless you mean you're the end unit of a TH complex?

i recall watching an episode of Holmes on Homes that had a similar problem as yours ... there was insulation between units but sound was still traveling through.

investigation with sound meters throughout the house revealed that not all parts of the dividing wall were properly insulated.
chances are if you can hear your neighbour, they can hear you and maybe experiencing the same discomfort.

talk to them about getting the test done since it will require their co-operation as equipment has to be placed in one side making noise, with noise meters in the other unit to gage the decibel levels, etc.

if it is determined that there is a deficiency, then the builder and tarion will have to fix it under warranty.

 

[PIX]

Sorry. Yes I am in an end unit... just assume that semi-detached means a single attached neighbor -no pun intended? Spoke to the neighbor beside my neighbor and apparently I get the impression that the sound on his side is not as bad and he didn't go with soundproofing upgrades? I saw the same episode of Holms on Homes. In fact my colleague at the office will be having Thanksgiving dinner with Mike this weekend and he agreed to pose my issue to him just in case he had some suggestions. At my condo Concord brought in a company to do the sound test at no cost to me.