Admiral Beez
Superstar
Go ahead if you want to, but you're far more likely to see folks here pretending it's all Mike Harris' fault. Doesn't matter that he's been gone since 2002, someone here is going to blame him for all of Toronto's woes.
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Next Mayor of Toronto?
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lordmandeep
Banned
Imo the Police may get to much money but they are doing their job and doing a decent job. There are more police officers and a larger police presence in the streets. To some of you, this scares you, but IMO it keeps troublemakers on edge which is good.
Sure there is fat, but its not failing or becoming useless.
It is his fault, he see's a budget shortfall and yet spends like an fool. You can blame the past but he has been in charge for 7 years now!
Sure there is fat, but its not failing or becoming useless.
It is his fault, he see's a budget shortfall and yet spends like an fool. You can blame the past but he has been in charge for 7 years now!
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I just don't understand why Miller didn't push for a wage freeze for councillors. Why give them a raise if the city's finances are in rough shape? A wage freeze would have given him and council a much better position from which to engage the unions during the strike.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
On what are you basing the assertion that the police are doing a decent job of doing their job? I could cite a litany of complaints about police inefficiency and corruption, but I concede that such detractions wouldn't necessarily prove the police aren't doing a decent job.
I would rather hear a cogent, affirmative case, not just a bare assetion that they're "doing a decent job" (we already have The Toronto Sun to restate that bare assertion 7 days a week). Seriously, by what measure can it be said that the Toronto Police are effective and efficient?
This isn't a piss-take. I would really like to know.
I am a great believer in the notion that people ought to honour and respect police as the ultimate defenders of society's rules. But members of the Toronto Police have -- time and again -- done much to convince us that they are lazy, corrupt bureaucrats. I would very much like for that not to happen.
lordmandeep
Banned
Its simple...
we are a city full of poor immigrants and poor youths who feel abandoned from society.
Yet the city has very low crime rates....
Sure this is mostly due to our social programs and all that, but the police play a huge part.
Yes the Police has corruption and waste, but its wrong to say they do not do their job.
we are a city full of poor immigrants and poor youths who feel abandoned from society.
Yet the city has very low crime rates....
Sure this is mostly due to our social programs and all that, but the police play a huge part.
Yes the Police has corruption and waste, but its wrong to say they do not do their job.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
You originally said the police "are doing their job and doing a decent job". I don't think anyone ever said "the police aren't doing their job", as you accused in your most-recent post.
I asked you to state the basis of your opinion that the Toronto Police are doing "a decent job". You say the evidence is in Toronto's "very low crime rates" for "a city full of poor immigrants and poor youths who feel abandoned from society", and police play a huge part.
IMHO, even if your assertions are true (which I think is debatable) that's an insufficient argument. I'm no criminologist, so I don't know whether the levels of corruption and inefficiency in the Toronto Police are such that one could say they're "not doing a decent job of doing their job". But in terms of proving the contrary (i.e. that they ARE doing a decent job, etc.), I'm still waiting.
Maybe it would help if I provided one example of how it seems the Toronto Police aren't doing a decent job: the police union just elected as its leader a well-connected perjurer. Two leaders before him, they elected a guy who beat the crap out of a drunk in a park and then conspired with countless other cops to cover up their crime. The current leader -- the perjurer -- is the son of a former chief and the brother of a guy who is implicated in a huge extortion/bribery scandal, the paperwork for which seems to get periodically lost to the point that charges get dropped. Veteran investigators have been punished for blowing the whistle on the way this investigation has been handled.
And that's just the rot at the top of the system.
I dunno, though. It has been several years since the entire downtown vice squad had to be disbanded for conducting themselves as a criminal gang. The fact that they are being abetted by the crown and judiciary shouldn't necessarily reflect poorly on today's Toronto Police Services. Chief Blair certainly seems to be making positive changes. It is beyond debate that the demographic make-up of the police is changing to reflect the population of the city. These are the types of arguments that would seem to support the notion that the Toronto police are doing a good job.
But I don't see how the police are a deterrent to the criminal potentiality of dissaffected youth. Even the police will tell you that the answer to youth criminality is enhanced opportunity, not the threat of incarceration.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Honestly, from what I've read above, I don't think any info he provides that is reasonably available will convince you. He's given his opinion that the police are both effective and not generally corrupt. He's not stating this as substantiated fact, but as an opinion.
My own opinion is that Toronto's police is less corrupt than, for instance police in poor African or South American countries. This is namely, IMO, because Toronto police are better paid and thus do not need to resort to bribes. There much more to it than that of course, but all in all, I'd say IMO the Toronto police are relatively free of corruption. I'm not stating this as a fact, just my opinion, which you can reject, ignore, or whatever you please.
lordmandeep
Banned
Yes no one is denying there is no corruption but when a crime wave hits, there is action from the police unlike what you see in other North American cities, who simply just do not care.
It does not excuse corruption though...
It does not excuse corruption though...
whatever
Senior Member
CDL.TO
Moderator
The residential mill rate in 1999 was 1.2137%
The residential mill rate in 2008 was 0.8749%
The residential mill rate in 2009 is 0.8548%
Tax rates have gone DOWN during Miller's tenure.
And the city has no control over property assessments.
In comparison, the residential mill rate in Mississauga is 1.0176%
ShonTron
Moderator
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I am absolutely thrilled Georgio Mammolitti is running for mayor. That leaves his council seat wide open, and gets rid of some deadwood.
Giambrone's star is rising too quickly. That's setting him up for a crash and burn.
Giambrone's star is rising too quickly. That's setting him up for a crash and burn.
Juan_Lennon416
Senior Member
Mammoliti already lost the race.
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nfitz
Superstar
Thank god Miller is gone; he's clearly dropped the taxation rate too quickly, endangering the future fiscal stability of the city!
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I don't care what the tax rate is, I only care that my taxes to the city have gone way up. If property assessments have increased, then the tax rate should come down to a revenue neutral level.
lordmandeep
Banned
Just interested, did those rates go down because the city did not really increase rates compared to the rapidly rising property values?
Or why else...
From what I recall, he never decreased property taxes.
Or why else...
From what I recall, he never decreased property taxes.