Newmarket

[taal]

There's huge amounts of politics everywhere, media covered or not. Davis Dr. is a logical place for the VIVA "Rapidway" to connect Yonge St. with the healthcare centre, the Historic Downtown, and the GO Newmarket Train Station. The Rapidway will also encourage intensification along Davis. I've only heard of VIVA buses on Davis using the curb lane east of the hospital, as TJ said. Dedicated centre median lanes have been the preferred option since the get go. There are detailed cross-sections and designs on the VIVANext website that show this.

However, the majority of growth is expected to be along Yonge St. The opportunities to intensify Yonge St with mixed-use, high-density developments are incredible. The Region and Town has already identified Yonge St. as an urban centre. The Town is undergoing a Secondary Plan review to develop policies for the Yonge Street Regional Centre. Check out this Visualization Study that was prepared for and endorsed by Newmarket Council. Will Newmarket develop like envisioned? Who knows, but it won't be for awhile. But that's not to say that they shouldn't plan to accomodate future growth in this manner.

I completely understand this ... and it's great ... I'm not sure why your trying to justify it for me. My point was very simple, this shouldn't take precedence over other areas, frankly it should be last on the list at the present time considering other areas are already being intensified

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Fatmarket sucks. It's full of overweight fat people.

 

[Dandy Horse]

1. newmarket is not the same as the rest of ontario sprawl, it has a downtown that was connected to Toronto by an interurban trolly from 1899 until 1930. so as a result, the post 1930 town is suburban sprawl, but the pre 1930 newmarket is a real town where 6000+ people live in dense grid pattern neighborhoods from before the war. the whole town is 36 square Km (6K each side) with a population of 82,000.

the downtown has everything you would need except a grocery store, it had a lawblaws up until 1992 but then loblaws moved to somewhere that had a bigger parkinglot, where it staye until it built another place even further away with an even bigger parkinglot. the parkinglot that was for the original lawblaws is currently being turned into a park with a skating rink and trees. its called the Community Urban Space Project (CUSP) because the real name has not been decided yet.

obviously, most of the rest of newmarket is grey, hard and horizontal. but thats nothing unique to newmarket, thats pretty much everywhere that was built after 1945.

newmarket was always a town (since before Canada was a country, actually), it was always planned to be a place for urban living. Because of what cars became, newmarket got all messed up, and all of it's post-war growth looks like crap and is boring and physically/ socially unhealthy. but the downtown is an actually good place.
im just saying this because i feel that some people come to newmarket and see the 404 and the upper canada mall and think thats it. there was and still is an interesting and cohesive urban community on main street, particularly the south end (although there are several holes and a serious lack of new and affordable housing and some services, especially groceries).

2. i just found out today, construction of the actual rapidway is not going to start until NEXT (2011) fall, because they need to rebuild the bridge first. i saw a picture of it on the bike path, the new bridge is to have large sidewalks, old fashioned lighting and sculptured classy looking railings, two lanes of traffic going each way on the outside and two bus lanes in the middle. On the same board was a picture of the old interurban trolly, which would have crossed davis drive on the east side of the bridge. its such a trauma that that train was removed and it's rails torn up. its like that guy said 'who will put them back for you?".

3. just a random tidbit of info: before cars, railway companies were charging more and more for their services, so Mulock, the MP for newmarket way back, whose house still stands at mulock and yonge, designed a canal system that would work only a few times a year to connect newmarket to lake simcoe. The project was built 90%, everything except the gates were put into the locks. The project was dragged down by rising costs inflicted upon the canal builders by the government, who were responding to pressure from the rail lobby to increase widths of concrete for 'safety', making it way more expensive and slower to build. then there was a federal election and the liberals were out and the conservatives were in, and they pulled all funding from the canal, even though it was just about done.
Not a single ship has ever passed through the Holland River canal system, and it sits in ruins along the river that runs through the center of town (the best locks are in bayview (George Richardson) park, or further down stream for the really big ones at 2nd concession Rd. north of green lane. theres more at Old yonge and Mt Albert Rd but they're not as cool looking. (the last two are actually not in newmarket, but in the township to the direct north, East Gwillumbury.

read the EG official plan, its possibly the most 1950s terrible thing ever. its from 2005. ya. they're still doing that. ill give you a hint: no one will walk anywhere.

 

[doady]

newmarket is not the same as the rest of ontario sprawl, it has a downtown that was connected to Toronto by an interurban trolly from 1899 until 1930. so as a result, the post 1930 town is suburban sprawl, but the pre 1930 newmarket is a real town where 6000+ people live in dense grid pattern neighborhoods from before the war. the whole town is 36 square Km (6K each side) with a population of 82,000.

the downtown has everything you would need except a grocery store, it had a lawblaws up until 1992 but then loblaws moved to somewhere that had a bigger parkinglot, where it staye until it built another place even further away with an even bigger parkinglot. the parkinglot that was for the original lawblaws is currently being turned into a park with a skating rink and trees. its called the Community Urban Space Project (CUSP) because the real name has not been decided yet.

obviously, most of the rest of newmarket is grey, hard and horizontal. but thats nothing unique to newmarket, thats pretty much everywhere that was built after 1945.

newmarket was always a town (since before Canada was a country, actually), it was always planned to be a place for urban living. Because of what cars became, newmarket got all messed up, and all of it's post-war growth looks like crap and is boring and physically/ socially unhealthy. but the downtown is an actually good place.
im just saying this because i feel that some people come to newmarket and see the 404 and the upper canada mall and think thats it. there was and still is an interesting and cohesive urban community on main street, particularly the south end (although there are several holes and a serious lack of new and affordable housing and some services, especially groceries).

I take it you've never been to Downtown Brampton, Streetsville, Port Credit, Downtown Burlington, Downtown Oakville, Downtown Milton, Downtown Whitby, etc...

 

[adma]

One problem with "perceptions" of Newmarket, I feel, is that unlike Aurora or Richmond Hill down the road, the old town is *not* centred upon Yonge, but more like cradled by Yonge/Davis/Mulock/Leslie--thus, a casual passer-through's impression is that of outskirts without a centre...

 

[taal]

One problem with "perceptions" of Newmarket, I feel, is that unlike Aurora or Richmond Hill down the road, the old town is *not* centred upon Yonge, but more like cradled by Yonge/Davis/Mulock/Leslie--thus, a casual passer-through's impression is that of outskirts without a centre...

I don't think there are any of these folks on this thread ... it seems like most people are quite familiar with the downtown area.
And Doady is 100% correct - it is no different then his list - and you can add Richmond Hill / Unionville / Downtown Markham ... and really, there are quite a few places on the list with a more established (old town - downtown area [as I'll call it]) then there is here! One thing going for this area is all the parks around it.

And to be clear ... we know this one is one of the oldest, so maybe established is the wrong choice ... but I'll go with successful.

Anyway, my point at the end of the day that seems to keep being missed - I am not in one bit questioning the validity of this project - I am, however, questioning the time line ... it should, be dead last on any of the YRTs BRT plans ... i.e. after the other segments of Hi-way 7 / Yonge ... these areas are much more dense (and on an order of magnitudes) in order of employment ... and that's what drives transit at the end of the day!

 

[wopchop]

Right now, Newmarket functions as a cheap housing spot for those priced out of homes in southern York Region. For the cost of a condo downtown, one can get a nice house in Newmarket.

Ludicrous. Real estate in Newmarket isn't very cheap at all.

Anyway, my family lives in Newmarket, and I've always been taken by the beauty of historic Newmarket, and pissed off by the planning catastrophe of post-war Newmarket. For a town of only 80,000 people, the traffic problems in Newmarket are ridiculous.

One of my biggest problems with Newmarket is the separation of the GO Bus Terminal and the GO Train Terminal. With VIVA buses going down Davis Dr. in the future, I think it would make more sense to route VIVA Blue buses east along Davis to the Train Station, as opposed to going west to the bus terminal at Eagle st. GO Buses would also serve this same combined terminal. This would also better connect GO Bus commuters from Simcoe County to Toronto.

It might even spur development at the Old Davis Tannery, which is essentially a vacant office building, and has ample room to grow. Fill it with jobs, and hopefully people will take VIVA / GO Buses / Trains to reach it, and the area. It's also close to the biggest employer in town (Southlake Hospital), which could be a big transit draw. This also doesn't significantly alter the route of the VIVA Blue, as it will still serve the nodes of the York Region Courthouse, York Region Government HQ, York Regional Police HQ, the Upper Canada Mall, and any future development that occurs at Yonge & Davis.

Newmarket also needs a big indoor farmer's market (ala St. Lawrence). The town is ridiculously close to the most productive farmland in Ontario (the Holland Marsh) and this could be a huge potential draw for people in the surrounding area.

Maybe this sort of development could even convince Magna to abandon Aurora ... or the mythic Queensville University might even make a comeback!

 

[Dandy Horse]

Hey theres something happening! on Yonge street just north of Davis Drive this condo: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18199-Slessor-Square-(17645-Yonge-Street-Newmarket) was proposed. Since then, this has been a big issue in the town paper: http://www.yorkregion.com/topic/slessoryork .
There has been uproar over the Height of the building, and not the fact that it is butt-ugs (probably because people are used to things being butt ugly up there).
Now the Mayor Tony Van Bynen and the Regional Chair John Taylor are saying that there should be a height limit on buildings in the town... of 15 Stories! http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1300686--town-needs-15-storey-building-cap-taylor

things are getting pretty hairy, especially because two years ago a spot right beside the Slessor site, which has been an abandoned school for the better part of twenty years was approved for a twenty story condo.

Urbantoronto, we need to convince these people that their problem is not that the building is 22 and 24 stories, but that this building is hideous!

 

[In4matt]

I can't believe the Davis Drive BRT lane will take until 2015 to complete.
When I was living in Seoul, they built a 11km BRT lane that went by my apartment in about a year (it had to cross a bridge too). The road was about the same size as Davis Drive, but the space between the road and buildings was way less than the large gaps on Davis Drive. Also, the utilities were relocated, and the sidewalks were redone (with interlocking stone, not just cement) I know the cost of labour is cheaper in Korea, but even considering that I don't understand how it will take so long in Newmarket.

Here are some pictures

 

[wopchop]

Hey theres something happening! on Yonge street just north of Davis Drive this condo: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18199-Slessor-Square-(17645-Yonge-Street-Newmarket) was proposed. Since then, this has been a big issue in the town paper: http://www.yorkregion.com/topic/slessoryork .
There has been uproar over the Height of the building, and not the fact that it is butt-ugs (probably because people are used to things being butt ugly up there).
Now the Mayor Tony Van Bynen and the Regional Chair John Taylor are saying that there should be a height limit on buildings in the town... of 15 Stories! http://www.yorkregion.com/news/article/1300686--town-needs-15-storey-building-cap-taylor

things are getting pretty hairy, especially because two years ago a spot right beside the Slessor site, which has been an abandoned school for the better part of twenty years was approved for a twenty story condo.

Urbantoronto, we need to convince these people that their problem is not that the building is 22 and 24 stories, but that this building is hideous!

I doubt it. People in Newmarket won't support height. They would take a hideous 15-storey building over a gorgeous 24-storey. You should see the uproar currently being caused by Glenway Golf Club's plans for redevelopment, and that's only over a bunch of single detached homes. I fully expect the cap to be imposed, and for the voters of Newmarket to overwhelmingly support it.

 

[Dandy Horse]

It turns out the towers are being lowered to 16 each, but no word on the town-wide height cap yet. Glenway is also getting a high rise on Davis right beside the bus station, not sure how high tho.

Considering the low-rise neighbourhoods and the site being on the highest point in town, 16 stories will still appear very tall, and give great views. I would prefer it to be denser still.

 

[In4matt]

Davis Drive BRT and Go train hub at Davis Tannery

I am by no means an urban planner (i'm sure my work will demonstrate this), but I really would love to see the Tanner area redeveloped to as Newmarket urbanizes. Using a free paint program, I made a diagram of the area and what I hope to see in this area.

I also included some example pictures from a Korean blog of an example of what I am thinking would be great at this location (the Korean station is a similar, it has a regional rail connection and a brt station out front, however, it also has a transfer to a subway station) On the right is the train station entrance, in the middle is a retail/entertainment complex with an approximately 10 storey department store with a fancy grocery store, several food courts, culture space, a spa, fancy restaurants, a movie theater near the top, green roofs, there is also a affordable grocery store/Walmart type store. I went here often and it was a great space for shopping, seeing a movie or grabbing some food.

 

[Dandy Horse]

There is a condo development proposed for downtown, in the parking lot between main and the library. there is a meeting tomorrow at 7pm at the community center near behind main street. it starts at 7pm. If any UTers can get there it would be really good, as there is a very strong NIMBYism here. they simply do not understand that more people = better. right now that street is a ghost town unless its the santa claus parade.

--in4matt that looks amazing. I really want to see the main and davis to main and eagle area turn into a walkable urban village.

-- i posted some pictures in the viva/ yrt general thread about the BRT construction on Davis, go have a look if you're interested.

 

[Dandy Horse]

the meeting on April 3rd was pretty well attended by all sorts of Newmarket people.

Here are some shots of the site that surrounds the old Post Office building at Main and Park Ave as it currently looks.

The Post office and it's 1950s addition are owned by Forrester and run as an old age home called "The Clock Tower Inn". Forrester is nearly complete a newer larger building for these people to move to on Gorham Street, West of leslie.

In the bottom of this image you can see the one section of streetcar track in the town. 50m to the south of this spot is the site of the Newmarket Radial Railway station, now a parking lot. an hour and a half to downtown Toronto, powered by electricity, from 1899-1930. Imagine that! the line stretched all the way north to sutton, and much of the right of way North of Davis Drive is walking paths today.

Only TWO people live in all the apartments above the stores here. The landlords are not interested in renting, and have also let these buildings basically rot to death. When I talked to the people at Econo Pizza, who are fantastic people, they said their bussiness has been slower for the last few years because there are no longer any people living above their block anymore, when before there were many. how sad, and spooky.

the proposal is contingent on community feedback (supposedly), as the developer, Forrester Group, owns only the Post Office building, and not the buildings on Main Street. they said they will only go ahead with purchasing the Main street buildings if their plan is approved by council. here are the renderings of their proposal.

The project is intended to have 145 units in seven stories, and 190 parking spots in two underground levels. Forrester is also offering the town even more underground parking spots if the town wants them to build it.

there are two planned pedestrian pass throughs, one on Main where Econo Pizza is today, apparently it was an alleyway up until about 20 yrs ago when econo pizza was built there (thats why Econo is so small! best pizza in town, tho), and another on Park Ave.

all buildings on Main aside form Econo are going to be fixed up to look like they did 100 yrs ago.

the condo entrance will be on Park Ave.

In the meeting there was a lot of talk done by frightened old NIMBYS talking about parking and how parking in downtown is so hard and driving is so hard and life is just so hard. If you look at a google map of this area there are so many parking spots its disgusting.

My absolute FAVORITE part of the entire meeting was a sullen looking young woman ask the "question" during "question period" of "This is not Toronto... Its just not TORONTO" shaking her head. I loved/ hated it but just wanted to share, in case any of you thought for a second that Newmarket was actually Toronto. I know I sometimes get confused, too.

there was a lot of talk as well of making the building shorter than 7 stories, and that it didn't look "historic" enough, and that the "historic" nature of Main street is in jeopardy, and that soon all will be lost FOREVER.

this in spite of Main street being a totally normal street with everything you need on it up until 1978 when the mall and Newmarket Plaza were built, sucking all economic activity out of downtown and setting it into a downward spirial that has only recently abated.

the town government people seemed rather for it, but also thought that 7 stories was too high and that 5 would be nicer. Some members of the BIA were in visible support of it, as they have identified that they need more people downtown to be able to make a living.

the guy in charge of explaining things was pretty bad at his job, and did not convince people this was a good idea, so get ready for a fight!

heres hoping for a new, pedestrian friendly and less depressing future for Newmarket!

 

[blahblahblah]

Oh please let this happen. At 2 times coverage, can it actually be stopped? 1.25 parking spaces, 2 time coverage. How could anyone stop it? Some of those condos would end up on the rental market. .8% vacancy rate. This is exactly what Newmarket needs. Please keep us informed of other meetings as I would like to be at the next one.