New Transit Funding Sources

[rfid]

Why is it so much better to toll the vehicle coming in from QEW, 400, 404, but if the same driver comes in on Dundas, hwy 27, Keele, Markham Road then they pay nothing.There are numerous major arterial roads leading into Toronto - will these all have toll cameras, transponder readers, etc.?

Toronto has no geographical feature that easily allows tolling entry to the city. There's too many roads, except from maybe the strictly east end, where only Steeles/Taunton, Finch, Twyn Rivers, Kingston, and 401 cross.

Other cities might typically implement that on the bridges that enter the city.

 

[TOareaFan]

From Buffalo? The Buffalo to Toronto train only arrives in Toronto at 7:45 pm, too late to catch the last train to Ottawa. So either you overnight in Toronto, or you drive to Niagara Falls and catch the train from there to Toronto and change to Ottawa. About 7.5 hours - which is not bad given it's 6.5 hours to drive, and on the train you have an hour in Toronto to change trains.

and other than that pretty specific trip of Buffalo to Toronto (and I know that it was someone else's example but I am guessing it makes up a pretty small % of the congestion causing trips on the 401) there really are not a lot of 401 trips that you could, reasonably, say "too bad...take a train if you don't like it".

 

[nfitz]

and other than that pretty specific trip of Buffalo to Toronto (and I know that it was someone else's example but I am guessing it makes up a pretty small % of the congestion causing trips on the 401) there really are not a lot of 401 trips that you could, reasonably, say "too bad...take a train if you don't like it".

Given that there's fairly decent rail service to just about every major community along the 401 from Windsor to Montreal, I'd disagree with that. Windsor, London, Sarnia, Woodstock, Chatham, Stratford, Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, Brantford, Oshawa, Brockville, Belleville, Cobourg, Cornwall, Ottawa, Kingston ...

Peterborough to Welland isn't particularly well served ...

I'm surprised that Niagara Falls to Ottawa works as well as it does ... wasn't expecting that actually!

 

[BMO]

Given that there's fairly decent rail service to just about every major community along the 401 from Windsor to Montreal, I'd disagree with that. Windsor, London, Sarnia, Woodstock, Chatham, Stratford, Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, Brantford, Oshawa, Brockville, Belleville, Cobourg, Cornwall, Ottawa, Kingston ...

Peterborough to Welland isn't particularly well served ...

I'm surprised that Niagara Falls to Ottawa works as well as it does ... wasn't expecting that actually!

A tank of gas which can take me to and from Niagara costs about $45. There's no train ticket that can compare with this (if there is, show me, because I'd rather take the train).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

People going from Bramalea to Union are 401 users? The 401 is an alternative to a GO from Bramalea to Union? Someone from outside of the city (to the west), to avoid the 401 toll is encouraged/expected to drive to Bramalea, take a train to Union then find a, presumably, TTC route that gets them back up to the destination near the 401 that they were aiming for in the first place?

This may be true in a transit utopian world we think we are in but in the real world, the reality is there is no train that is a 401 alternative....I wish it were so...but those poor people who are stuck using that road to get to and from their daily lives (thankfully, except for a brief stretch of my commute I am not one of them) do not have a train alternative in which they can take refuge from any proposed tolling of the 401.

IMO, Open up summerhill (hi CPRail) and then you have options.

 

[Tulse]

A tank of gas which can take me to and from Niagara costs about $45. There's no train ticket that can compare with this (if there is, show me, because I'd rather take the train).

You're right that no round trip ticket can beat that -- Toronto - Niagara on Via currently runs as low as $45.20 for round trip (the "Economy-special fare"). You save 20 cents by driving.

 

[BMO]

You're right that no round trip ticket can beat that -- Toronto - Niagara on Via currently runs as low as $45.20 for round trip (the "Economy-special fare"). You save 20 cents by driving.

plus air conditioning, and personal choice in music, plus flexibility to stop on the way for a bite to eat but no really. Most people who currently drive on the QEW would already have gas in their car, so whether it is 20cents or $5 cheaper. It's not worth it to deal with the hassle of taking local transit to the VIA train and from the VIA train. So in reality you're probably looking at adding $6 at each end just to get to the VIA train....Whereas the car takes you from the doorstep to doorstep.

 

[nfitz]

A tank of gas which can take me to and from Niagara costs about $45. There's no train ticket that can compare with this (if there is, show me, because I'd rather take the train).

Generally I agree. I'm not saying people SHOULD do this. I'm simply answering the question of if people want to avoid tolls on the 401, which train should they take.

You can get some good fares on VIA. VIA currently has Toronto-Ottawa as low as $39 on some trains.

$45 for gas for Niagara to Ottawa and back? That's about 1,150 km. Gas is about $1.27 a litre today. So that's 35 litres. About 3.1 L/100 km ... or 92 miles/gallon. I can only assume you drive an electric vehicle or a scooter. Either that or you haven't travelled to Ottawa and back since the 1990s ...

Toronto - Niagara on Via currently runs as low as $45.20 for round trip (the "Economy-special fare").

To be fair, I think that's 1-way. Still if you get 45 miles per gallon or worse like the rest of us, it's still cheaper!

 

[BMO]

Generally I agree. I'm not saying people SHOULD do this. I'm simply answering the question of if people want to avoid tolls on the 401, which train should they take.

You can get some good fares on VIA. VIA currently has Toronto-Ottawa as low as $39 on some trains.

$45 for gas for Niagara to Ottawa and back? That's about 1,150 km. Gas is about $1.27 a litre today. So that's 35 litres. About 3.1 L/100 km ... or 92 miles/gallon. I can only assume you drive an electric vehicle or a scooter. Either that or you haven't travelled to Ottawa and back since the 1990s ...

haha No I was referring to the Niagara to Toronto trip. Not Ottawa to Toronto, also forgot to mention me and my buddies push the car for the last 10km (joke). but I guess the fact that the VIA train takes 5hrs + compared to 4hrs by car would be something to consider in that case.

 

[Tulse]

plus air conditioning, and personal choice in music, plus flexibility to stop on the way for a bite to eat but no really. Most people who currently drive on the QEW would already have gas in their car, so whether it is 20cents or $5 cheaper. It's not worth it to deal with the hassle of taking local transit to the VIA train and from the VIA train. So in reality you're probably looking at adding $6 at each end just to get to the VIA train....Whereas the car takes you from the doorstep to doorstep.

But that's moving the goalposts -- the original claim was that there was no train ticket you could get for $45. And sure, the flexibility is great, but so is not having the responsibility of driving and dealing with traffic, the ability to go to the bathroom or read or snack or talk on the phone or nap, not having to worry about parking, etc. etc. The two modes of travel each have their own advantages and disadvantages, my point was merely that, in this specific case, cost is not one of them.

 

[nfitz]

haha No I was referring to the Niagara to Toronto trip. Not Ottawa to Toronto, also forgot to mention me and my buddies push the car for the last 10km (joke). but I guess the fact that the VIA train takes 5hrs + compared to 4hrs by car would be something to consider in that case.

Ahh ... that's $45.20 return on VIA ... including all taxes. $39.10 on GO Transit trains ...

 

[TOareaFan]

Given that there's fairly decent rail service to just about every major community along the 401 from Windsor to Montreal, I'd disagree with that. Windsor, London, Sarnia, Woodstock, Chatham, Stratford, Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, Brantford, Oshawa, Brockville, Belleville, Cobourg, Cornwall, Ottawa, Kingston ...

Peterborough to Welland isn't particularly well served ...

I'm surprised that Niagara Falls to Ottawa works as well as it does ... wasn't expecting that actually!

Maybe I have missed the point of this discussion (highly probable) but I thought the discussion was about using tolls to lower congestion on the 401 as it passes through Toronto. If that is the case, the vast majority of the trips are people moving from one part of the GTA to another part of the GTA.....which train serves that (again, I may have missed the point).

I know that there is a train from Brampton to Union (as an example) but if someone's trip is, say, Brampton to Scarbororough or Brampton to North York....that train is not going to take them off of the 401 (might help, ever so slightly with the short stretch by the airport but that is it).

 

[TOareaFan]

IMO, Open up summerhill (hi CPRail) and then you have options.

Again, I may have missed the point, but I thought the discussion was (to paraphrase)...toll the 401 to raise cash - has the benefit of reducing congestion now - as people who want to avoid the tol can take the train! To which I asked, what train can they take? In the real world...now? Not in some potential/hypothetical/dream world.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Again, I may have missed the point, but I thought the discussion was (to paraphrase)...toll the 401 to raise cash - has the benefit of reducing congestion now - as people who want to avoid the tol can take the train! To which I asked, what train can they take? In the real world...now? Not in some potential/hypothetical/dream world.

I got nothing

 

[BMO]

Again, I may have missed the point, but I thought the discussion was (to paraphrase)...toll the 401 to raise cash - has the benefit of reducing congestion now - as people who want to avoid the tol can take the train! To which I asked, what train can they take? In the real world...now? Not in some potential/hypothetical/dream world.

That's what's unfortunate. GO is really good for suburb -> Toronto trips. but not Suburb -> Suburb trips. I'm sure most people on the 401 are doing crosstown trips between east end suburbs towards the west end suburbs, etc.