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New Transit Funding Sources

nfitz said:
Uh, no it didn't. Where are you getting this stuff? The streetcar was on budget. The road and sidwalk rebuild and the hydro work, which wasn't part of the original budget, was the budget issue.
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And the powers-that-be want to add hydro work and other utility work to the streetcar right-of-way on the Queens Quay East project, as well. Which would increase those costs as well. Landscaping costs, which has nothing to do with transit except that it would look nice, were already added.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Vancouver =/= BC.
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The Vancouver tax is applied to the entire South Coast British Columbia transportation service region (SCTA). This area is shown on http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Doc...cts/roads_bridges/Major Road Network Map.ashx (i.e. everything except Abbotsford and Mission). The population of this area is 2.3 million people - which is 53% of the population of BC.

There's also a (smaller) gas transit tax for an area around Victoria. Between the 2 areas, that's over 60% of the people in BC paying a fuel tax for transit.

Vancouver might not equal BC - however the majority of people in BC are paying a fuel tax for transit.

Also, if you look at the actual referendum results - http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2011-CEO-HST-Referendum-Report.pdf you'll see the Vancouver ridings themselves voted 56.5% in favour of scrapping the HST - while the province as a whole only voted 54.7% in favour of scrapping the HST.

So once again, I ask how you can say that Vancouver doesn't have a whiny electorate after the HST referendum?

denfromoakvillemilton said:
Come on.
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Come on?
 
nfitz said:
Isn't that backwards though? You do this with transit to encourage frequent users to use it.

Surely you want to discourage frequent highway users from using them - so the capacity is available for those that use it infrequently - which are more likely to be the people and particularly the cargo which is essential. I'm not saying there should be a penalty for frequent use - but surely there shouldn't be a discount.
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I appreciate what you are saying but there does have to be a reasonable limit.

The reality is that hundreds of thousands need their care for work to say nothing of long distance trucking and deliveries. Toronto needs the revenue but like all things it has to be fair. Just as you wouldn't toll someone taking the Gardiner/DVP $20 one way the same applies here. You really don't want this to become, quite literally, highway robbery. I think a road pass equal to the cost of a transit pass is not only fair but probably more importantly will be VIEWED as far. Optics is as important as reality especially when asking for money.

As far as very polarized Vancouver goes there is one thing that unites them.........................EVERYBODY hates paying the gas taxes. It's one of those very rare things that people agree on regardless of their income. This is especially true for those closest to the Valley where crssing the boundary between Langley and Abbotsford means an automatic 8 cent/litre cheaper gas. The difference here though is that most recognize it as a neccessary evil to expand the transit and road system. People here recognize that waiting for senior levels of government to pay 100% of the cost of everything just doesn't work nor is it even fair............something Toronto can't seem to get it's head around. This is why Vancouver has built 70km of grade separated rapid transit in the last 30 years and Toronto has built exactly one-tenth that amount.

The difference here is that people actually see REAL results of their gas taxes in both mass transit and road upgrades whereas in Toronto it takes 3 years to do an enviornmental assessment going down the middle of a street. People want to know that their money is actually being spent for the purpose for which it was intended and in Toronto that is unlikely.
 
ssiguy2 said:
I appreciate what you are saying but there does have to be a reasonable limit.

The reality is that hundreds of thousands need their care for work to say nothing of long distance trucking and deliveries. Toronto needs the revenue but like all things it has to be fair. Just as you wouldn't toll someone taking the Gardiner/DVP $20 one way the same applies here ...
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Fair enough ... though perhaps a severe toll for someone who does drive the entire length of the DVP AND Gardiner isn't a bad idea ... given the relative lack of capacity on that route, you'd want to encourage them to use the 401/427 or 407/427 instead.

Instead of frequency discounts, perhaps distance discounts make more sense. Say charge more for the first km than additional km - simply to discourage people clogging up the expressway for short trips.

Personally, as a driver in Toronto, I'd love to have road tolls. I'd much sooner pay a road toll, if it meant that it kept enough people off the highway that the highway became usable. Business would love this too, as it would cut costs.

That being said though, I doubt it will happen (other than perhaps some special tolling to pay for Gardiner maintenance, upgrades). Fuel taxes seem to be the most painless way to go based on other Canadian jurisdictions ... perhaps combined with some parking taxes.
 
nfitz said:
The Vancouver tax is applied to the entire South Coast British Columbia transportation service region (SCTA). This area is shown on http://www.translink.ca/~/media/Doc...cts/roads_bridges/Major Road Network Map.ashx (i.e. everything except Abbotsford and Mission). The population of this area is 2.3 million people - which is 53% of the population of BC.

There's also a (smaller) gas transit tax for an area around Victoria. Between the 2 areas, that's over 60% of the people in BC paying a fuel tax for transit.

Vancouver might not equal BC - however the majority of people in BC are paying a fuel tax for transit.

Also, if you look at the actual referendum results - http://www.elections.bc.ca/docs/rpt/2011-CEO-HST-Referendum-Report.pdf you'll see the Vancouver ridings themselves voted 56.5% in favour of scrapping the HST - while the province as a whole only voted 54.7% in favour of scrapping the HST.

So once again, I ask how you can say that Vancouver doesn't have a whiny electorate after the HST referendum?

Come on?
Click to expand...

ssiguy2 said:
I appreciate what you are saying but there does have to be a reasonable limit.

The reality is that hundreds of thousands need their care for work to say nothing of long distance trucking and deliveries. Toronto needs the revenue but like all things it has to be fair. Just as you wouldn't toll someone taking the Gardiner/DVP $20 one way the same applies here. You really don't want this to become, quite literally, highway robbery. I think a road pass equal to the cost of a transit pass is not only fair but probably more importantly will be VIEWED as far. Optics is as important as reality especially when asking for money.

As far as very polarized Vancouver goes there is one thing that unites them.........................EVERYBODY hates paying the gas taxes. It's one of those very rare things that people agree on regardless of their income. This is especially true for those closest to the Valley where crssing the boundary between Langley and Abbotsford means an automatic 8 cent/litre cheaper gas. The difference here though is that most recognize it as a neccessary evil to expand the transit and road system. People here recognize that waiting for senior levels of government to pay 100% of the cost of everything just doesn't work nor is it even fair............something Toronto can't seem to get it's head around. This is why Vancouver has built 70km of grade separated rapid transit in the last 30 years and Toronto has built exactly one-tenth that amount.

The difference here is that people actually see REAL results of their gas taxes in both mass transit and road upgrades whereas in Toronto it takes 3 years to do an enviornmental assessment going down the middle of a street. People want to know that their money is actually being spent for the purpose for which it was intended and in Toronto that is unlikely.
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This is it Nfitz. Toronto does not get any results. Vancouver does have some whiners but's it's not as a whole and this is one of the reasons why
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Toronto does not get any results. Vancouver does have some whiners but's it's not as a whole and this is one of the reasons why
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Toronto is litte different from Vancouver in implementation. Look at the new Evergreen line. How long have they been promising that for? It was supposed to be ready in 2002, and then it got deferred and deferred - but never cancelled. It's finally going to be delivered in 2016 - 14 years late and what, about a quarter-century since it was proposed.

We hadn't heard any mention of Eglinton Crosstown until Miller's unexpected 2008 announcement (though part of it is similar to the Eglinton West subway from Allen to Weston that was previously cancelled). And we are still on-track for a 2020 opening. That's far faster than Vancouver.

And the Canada line ... how many years did they waffle on about that? I remember them discussing it back in the 1980s (with talk of using Arbutus, or elevating it down Cambie), and it didn't open until 2010.

I fail to comprehend this "Grass is Always Greener" view of the world, that ignores reality.
 
nfitz said:
Toronto is litte different from Vancouver in implementation. Look at the new Evergreen line. How long have they been promising that for? It was supposed to be ready in 2002, and then it got deferred and deferred - but never cancelled. It's finally going to be delivered in 2016 - 14 years late and what, about a quarter-century since it was proposed.

We hadn't heard any mention of Eglinton Crosstown until Miller's unexpected 2008 announcement (though part of it is similar to the Eglinton West subway from Allen to Weston that was previously cancelled). And we are still on-track for a 2020 opening. That's far faster than Vancouver.

And the Canada line ... how many years did they waffle on about that? I remember them discussing it back in the 1980s (with talk of using Arbutus, or elevating it down Cambie), and it didn't open until 2010.

I fail to comprehend this "Grass is Always Greener" view of the world, that ignores reality.
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It won't be open in 2020. I can't believe you still think that. And what about Newtork 1988 and all those plan. Are you trying to say Vancouver has done less then Toronto?
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
It won't be open in 2020. I can't believe you still think that. And what about Newtork 1988 and all those plan. Are you trying to say Vancouver has done less then Toronto?
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Vancouver's RT expansion since the mid-80s pretty closely parallels the rate at what Toronto expanded in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

The fact that Vancouver didn't really start building rapid transit until the 80s, and once the Evergreen line is open in 2016, they will actually have the longest RT network in Canada, even factoring in Spadina. That's pretty impressive.
 
gweed123 said:
The fact that Vancouver didn't really start building rapid transit until the 80s, and once the Evergreen line is open in 2016, they will actually have the longest RT network in Canada, even factoring in Spadina. That's pretty impressive.
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It is impressive. Though we should have the lead back by 2020 or so. And how much bus RT will we have by then between VIVA and the Missisauga Transitway?

denfromoakvillemilton said:
It won't be open in 2020. I can't believe you still think that. And what about Newtork 1988 and all those plan. Are you trying to say Vancouver has done less then Toronto?
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I'm sure it will slip a year or two ... but with 2 tunnel boring machines now on-Site near Weston, and about to be launched, and tendering started to drop the other 2 in at Don Mills Road, it's really happening ... unless the Conservatives somehow get to power and fulfill their promise of cancelling it - though that's looking less likely as time ticks on.

Not saying Vancouver has done less ... simply refuting that Vancouver's stellar advances make a fuel tax unacceptable in Toronto but acceptable in Vancouver. It's simply your statement address to men (but not women?) that a fuel tax is a lead balloon I'm challenging here.
 
nfitz said:
It is impressive. Though we should have the lead back by 2020 or so. And how much bus RT will we have by then between VIVA and the Missisauga Transitway?

I'm sure it will slip a year or two ... but with 2 tunnel boring machines now on-Site near Weston, and about to be launched, and tendering started to drop the other 2 in at Don Mills Road, it's really happening ... unless the Conservatives somehow get to power and fulfill their promise of cancelling it - though that's looking less likely as time ticks on.

Not saying Vancouver has done less ... simply refuting that Vancouver's stellar advances make a fuel tax unacceptable in Toronto but acceptable in Vancouver. It's simply your statement address to men (but not women?) that a fuel tax is a lead balloon I'm challenging here.
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Sir was tongue in cheek. Where did I was aderess to men only, I was talking to the poster. I'm saying Toronto has done less and therefore people don't want more taxes for more money wasted the way they see it. They'll point to provincial govt or Toronto's deficit. They won't make sense, especially to you or me but people don't use logic at the best of times. That does not mean I don't support a gas tax.
 
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