New Transit Funding Sources

[muller877]

Yes, I get that (and have commented on that in the past) but the increase/return is not always "in line" with the investment. Eg after a year of doubled off peak service on Lakeshore there had been a 25% increase in off peak ridership....still an increase but not exactly in line. At some point the law of diminishing returns kicks in (you would assume) but what is shocking in the LA numbers is not that the increase is not in line with the investment....it is that there is no increase and, in fact, an absolute number decrease.

I post the article not to suggest that we are not going to get increased usage, I believe we will. But that just building (as the article calls them) "shiny new things" is no guarantee that it will solve problems.

I thought the increase was pretty good for Lakeshore West. It is using existing rolling stock so there was very little capital requirements to do this increase. And an increase like this will grow over time...so 25% after this short time frame is pretty good.

When I see the numbers of people after a Jays or Leafs game piling on the Lakeshore West line it shows how effective this strategy is. Also, I have coworkers on this line that use to bolt to get to the train. Now they will stick around for a beer since they know another train will come by quickly.

But it would be interesting to confirm the models that they are using by plugging in old transit expansion to see if the new model would match the old changes (it's a fairly common practise...I'm sure they've done it but would be nice if they shared this historical projection vs actual)

 

[kEiThZ]

The Hydro One sale isn't just about raising money. It's also about finding a way out (politically) from being blamed for the coming electricity hikes. HO needs some major re-investment. Rates will have to go up. The Wynne government doesn't want to be holding the bag when that happens. Far easier to blame the new private sector owner.

There is no other new revenue source for transit. Sadly. Torontonians are even going backwards with the repeal of the plate tax. Best we can hope for is that a congestion charge can be considered after the electrification of Lakeshore and Kitchener.

 

[TOareaFan]

I thought the increase was pretty good for Lakeshore West. It is using existing rolling stock so there was very little capital requirements to do this increase. And an increase like this will grow over time...so 25% after this short time frame is pretty good.

When I see the numbers of people after a Jays or Leafs game piling on the Lakeshore West line it shows how effective this strategy is. Also, I have coworkers on this line that use to bolt to get to the train. Now they will stick around for a beer since they know another train will come by quickly.

to be clear, I was not critiquing the expansion (at the time I was critical of the uneven expansion of GO service but not opposed to the expansion per se)....I was just pointing out that transit expansion does not always generate the same level of transit usage at the margins. Lakeshore is a very good line for handling crowds at events....but that increase of 25% usage that includes crowds from TFC/Argo/Leaf/Raptors/Jays games also should point out that if the overall is 25% increase...then the general "non event" increase must have been pretty slim to.

All that said, it was not my intent of posting the LA story as a critique of our transit expansion plans....but just as we look around the world for things to emulate, we should take note of things of a more cautionary nature.....and the LA story shows that transit expansion can also have its difficulties and the old "build it they will come" attitude may not, always, apply.....and we should try and understand the reasons for those.

 

[ssiguy2]

You cannot compare L.A. with Toronto. They have completely different urban forms and LA has very decentralized employment with a weak downtown with a relatively small population.

A fair comparison would be NYC, SF, Montreal, and perhaps Boston.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Heads up: City of Toronto is investigating revenue tools to pay for City Planning's 15 year transit expansion proposals. We should hear more in the coming months.

 

[TOareaFan]

funny they would search for "revenue tools"...the provincial search ended up with mostly debt (green bonds) and taxes (4.3 cent tax on gas/carbon) to fund their transit.

Everything that is old is new again.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

funny they would search for "revenue tools"...the provincial search ended up with mostly debt (green bonds) and taxes (4.3 cent tax on gas/carbon) to fund their transit.

Everything that is old is new again.

The problem with provincial revenue tools is that funding GTA and Toronto transit expansion has always been politically contentious. In Toronto, there's very strong consensus that transit funding is needed, so I'd expect less opposition to revenue tools here in Toronto than in the rest of Ontario. Just look at the Scarborough Subway tax, for example.

The Province of Ontario is too volatile, and to reluctant to invest in Toronto to adequately serve Toronto's capital needs. Unfortunately, Toronto must depend on the province to fund these itemss, because we're powerless to self fund transit expansion, poverty programs and other large items on the capital budget, as the province hasn't conferred the necessary revenue raising tools onto the city. So Toronto is in a logjam. It's about time we quit begging Ontario for money, and start asking for the revenue tools to raise transit funding ourselves, effectively cutting the province out of the decision making and funding process. The sooner we do that, the sooner we can properly address our infrastructure needs.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem with provincial revenue tools is that funding GTA and Toronto transit expansion has always been politically contentious. In Toronto, there's very strong consensus that transit funding is needed, so I'd expect less opposition to revenue tools here in Toronto than in the rest of Ontario. Just look at the Scarborough Subway tax, for example.

The Province of Ontario is too volatile, and to reluctant to invest in Toronto to adequately serve Toronto's capital needs. Unfortunately, Toronto must depend on the province to fund these itemss, because we're powerless to self fund transit expansion, poverty programs and other large items on the capital budget, as the province hasn't conferred the necessary revenue raising tools onto the city. So Toronto is in a logjam. It's about time we quit begging Ontario for money, and start asking for the revenue tools to raise transit funding ourselves, effectively cutting the province out of the decision making and funding process. The sooner we do that, the sooner we can properly address our infrastructure needs.

Toronto has been granted unique revenue tools that no other municipality (even other GTHA municipalities) has....and with the exception of one of them, has chosen not to use them.

 

[crs1026]

If anyone thinks that the Federal money that is being committed to the GTA for transit is raised in Swift Current, I have news for ya.

Similarly, no one is raising subway money for Toronto in Sault Ste Marie.

I'm happy to see Toronto fight for money both provincially and federally, because otherwise this city's contribution to the provincial and federal tax revenue will be doled out elsewhere.

But - we need to start raising the money locally, and working against the silly and cynical system where higher levels of government over-tax us and then try to win our votes by giving us our money back.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto has been granted unique revenue tools that no other municipality (even other GTHA municipalities) has....and with the exception of one of them, has chosen not to use them.

The problem with those taxes is that they aren't particularly powerful. An alcohol tax would bring in $50 Milliion/year, vehicle registration $50 Million/year, amusement tax 20 Million/year. You could implement all the revenue tools conferred to us in the CoTA, and we wouldn't be anywhere near being able to address our capital budget needs. I suspect a lot of people aren't particularly supportive of nickel and diming people to pay for improvements that would make a tiny impact on our lives. The costs to collect this revenue is also something that needs to be discussed.

On the other hand, powers not conferred to us in the CoTA could easily generate sufficient revenue to pay for our capital needs. For example, a 1% sales tax would generate $500 Million/year. That's enough money for the City of Toronto to unilaterally pay for City Planning's proposed transit expansions. I suspect people would be a lot more supportive of a tax increase if they could see how impactful it would be on their lives. A 1% sales tax, or 0.3% payroll levy or land value capture (or a combination of the three) something I happily stand behind if I knew it would built out our plans, and save commuters 30 min to 1+ hours every day.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If anyone thinks that the Federal money that is being committed to the GTA for transit is raised in Swift Current, I have news for ya.

Similarly, no one is raising subway money for Toronto in Sault Ste Marie.

I'm happy to see Toronto fight for money both provincially and federally, because otherwise this city's contribution to the provincial and federal tax revenue will be doled out elsewhere.

But - we need to start raising the money locally, and working against the silly and cynical system where higher levels of government over-tax us and then try to win our votes by giving us our money back.

- Paul

Toronto needs to continue to fight for provincial and federal money, but it must be understood that those governments will never give Toronto anywhere near the money necessary. Heck, even Trudeau's infrastructure plan would have a small impact on our city, since the funds have to be distributed all across Canada. I'd like see us move to a model where Toronto funds 50% of transit (and some other capital expenses), and the province and feds pay 25% each. That way if they pull their funding, the City and whichever other government remains can relatively easily cover the gap.

 

[sixrings]

The problem is that Toronto transit plans are contingent on other levels of government support. I'd much rather be able to fund and build ourselves and the province and feds put us over the top. Or 50/50. At least we would be building something consistantly.

 

[TOareaFan]

The problem with those taxes is that they aren't particularly powerful. An alcohol tax would bring in $50 Milliion/year, vehicle registration $50 Million/year, amusement tax 20 Million/year.

I see...so the tax raising authority the city received that no one else did are not enough so we might as well not collect them and then complain that we don't have the ability to raise the revenue we need? Nevermind that now, some 10 years after the powers were granted that would add up to $1.2B......so perhaps it was an opportunity lost?

 

[WislaHD]

The problem with those taxes is that they aren't particularly powerful. An alcohol tax would bring in $50 Milliion/year, vehicle registration $50 Million/year, amusement tax 20 Million/year. You could implement all the revenue tools conferred to us in the CoTA, and we wouldn't be anywhere near being able to address our capital budget needs. I suspect a lot of people aren't particularly supportive of nickel and diming people to pay for improvements that would make a tiny impact on our lives. The costs to collect this revenue is also something that needs to be discussed.

Additionally, the taxes the provinces gave use to use are not politically palatable. The province knew what it was doing when it gave us those specific taxes.

We saw this with the Vehicle Registration Tax which directly led to Rob Ford's election.

 

[TOareaFan]

Additionally, the taxes the provinces gave use to use are not politically palatable. The province knew what it was doing when it gave us those specific taxes.

We saw this with the Vehicle Registration Tax which directly led to Rob Ford's election.

I am sure the list of politically palatable taxes/tax increases is fairly short.