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New Streetcars

lokyin said:
speaking of streetcars, how long have they had the new automated stop announcements and that electronic stop display marquee board on ttc streetcars? i was on a queen st streetcar tonight and they had stop announcements like the subways "Next Stop, University Ave. Osgoode Subway Station" and the yellow marquee would flash "University Ave." and "Osgoode Stn" or something..

pretty nice to have something like that on our streetcars finally.
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The audio & visual stop announcements are on buses too. I take the 24A from Don Mills subway once or twice a week to get my neck fixed over on Consumers Road and have seen that system on the bus route there a few times.
 
I doubt there's only one, considering the number of sightings we seem to have had.
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I mean on the Bathurst route. I think he's the only singer on this route.

Encouraging fare evasion! If it's not a problem on Queen, then I don't see why it would be on Bathursts.
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Until the TTC declares Bathurst an official POP route, leaving the rear doors open is still wrong.

Keep in mind that the Bathurst car drops off passengers within the fare-paid zone at Bathurst station, unlike the Queen route where passengers who did not pay a fare to ride are still required to pay when entering the subway system.

*****

I've posted the links before, but here again are videos of the stop announcements on TTC streetcars.

Spadina

Spadina

Bathurst

Bathurst
 
In Prague every streetcar and subway route is POP. It speeds up boarding like you wouldn't believe. This can't be implemented fast enough on the TTC, IMO. Sure you'll get a few more evaders, but the the increased efficiency would make up for it.
 
MisterF said:
In Prague every streetcar and subway route is POP. It speeds up boarding like you wouldn't believe. This can't be implemented fast enough on the TTC, IMO. Sure you'll get a few more evaders, but the the increased efficiency would make up for it.
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That's one of those no brainer ideas that should be the end goal of the fare system. There are some operational barriers to making it work in Toronto, but I think that most of the barriers are institutional - management thinking "we can't do it... it just won't work."

Once we get people who think "maybe it can work," we'll all be surprised how quickly those barriers will come down.

Either way, since the new LRV fleet will have no onboard payment, the operational barriers will be forced down. However, if management isn't committed to making it work, then it will be chaos.
 
There's absolutely no reason why the TTC couldn't adopt a POP system. If we chased fare evaders with half the zeal with which we go after people whose parking meters expire, there won't be a dozen people on the whole TTC without a ticket.
 
The 90 Vaughan bus was flashing "Proof of Payment" on its display this morning so maybe it's been expanded without telling anyone. :p
 
A bus stopped for me once that was flashing "CHARTERED." It made one or two more stops, picking up about 3 people and then zoomed straight from Finch to STC. I set a new Scarborough to downtown land speed record that day! I then mentioned that artifically reduced figure whenever someone asked how long it takes me to get downtown, to avoid their pity and/or insults.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
I then mentioned that artifically reduced figure whenever someone asked how long it takes me to get downtown, to avoid their pity and/or insults.
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LOL, I do that too. The fastest time possible is always the time it takes me to get downtown from Eg-West.
 
TTC to eye Canadian content for new streetcars
Commission will seek competitive bids, but is expected to demand a percentage of parts, assembly work be done domestically

JEFF GRAY

December 18, 2007

Potentially controversial rules to ensure the city's next fleet of streetcars are partly made in Canada are on the agenda today at a special meeting of the Toronto Transit Commission.

The transit agency plans to spend more than $1-billion to build 204 low-floor streetcars to replace its aging fleet if it gets the needed provincial and federal funds. And it could double its order if its light-rail expansion plans over the next decade go ahead.

The last time the TTC went shopping for rail vehicles - its next generation of subway cars - controversy erupted over its decision not to seek competitive bids and instead to negotiate a deal directly with Montreal-based Bombardier, the only established Canadian manufacturer, in order to save jobs at its Thunder Bay plant.

This time, the TTC plans to allow multiple bids, but is expected to demand that a percentage of parts and assembly work be done in Canada, a position with strong support from Mayor David Miller and even from city councillors who criticized the subway contract.

Domestic content rules are common in such deals around the world. In the United States, 60 per cent of all public transit vehicles must be U.S.-made to receive federal funds.

But the TTC must walk a fine line to avoid ordering so much Canadian content that it appears to favour Bombardier unfairly and prompts foreign bidders to drop out.

The TTC will discuss the report behind closed doors before holding a public session on the streetcar project today.

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone wouldn't talk numbers yesterday, but he did say that the Canadian content provision is most likely not going to exceed 60 per cent - the estimated amount of Canadian content going into the TTC's new Thunder Bay-built subway cars. He also said it would likely not be less than 10 per cent.

"I support a Canadian content provision because this is potentially billions of dollars of taxpayers money, and it should be invested in Canada," Mr. Giambrone said.

Bombardier vice-president Mike Hardt said his firm was willing to compete for the deal on a level playing field. With at least $2-billion of work at stake, he said, his foreign competitors will still bid and invest in new factories in Canada to meet whatever rules are in place.

Mr. Hardt said a contract with a 60-per-cent Canadian content rule would create at least 600 jobs, and return hundreds of millions to the federal and provincial governments in taxes.

Mario Péloquin, the director of business development for the Canadian arm of German-based Siemens - another of the half-dozen companies eyeing the contract - would not say how high a Canadian content provision would make his firm to bow out.

While Siemens says it would make much of the streetcar in Austria and Germany, Mr. Péloquin said the firm would do final assembly in Canada and maximize its use of local parts.
 
I like the this proposed Transit City network. That being said, I dont think it is necessarily all the TTC is going to do. I fully expect more subway within the next decade.

If the City gets its financial house in order (uploading of costs?) and can somehow start running a surplus I think we'll see some specific lines announced to support this Transit City network even further.
 
isittimetomoveyet said:
I like the this proposed Transit City network. That being said, I dont think it is necessarily all the TTC is going to do. I fully expect more subway within the next decade.

If the City gets its financial house in order (uploading of costs?) and can somehow start running a surplus I think we'll see some specific lines announced to support this Transit City network even further.
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The city is close to bankruptcy. Getting their house in order would allow them to pay for what they already have planned. Union Station renos, Waterfront projects, Transit City, new streetcars, etc have to be paid for and really they are spending money they don't have right now because they are allowed to have deficits for infrastructure. They have spent most of the reserves. If the city commits billions to Transit City, especially building it on the lines where a subway would first be expanded, then subways, other than those heading to the 905 (i.e. Yonge or Bloor extensions), are a long way off.
 
I'm glad it's only 25 and not any higher... it'll keep foreign bidders in, and they may see it logical to build a plant out here should we ask for future orders and give Bombardier a little local competition.. I'm sick of them being the only "Canadian" option we have.


Streetcars to have 25 per cent Canadian content
TTC follows recommendations to keep foreign bidders in competition; Bombardier has argued even 30 per cent was too low
JEFF GRAY
December 19, 2007
Toronto's next generation of streetcars should be 25 per cent Canadian made, the Toronto Transit Commission decided yesterday, in an effort to squeeze some domestic job creation into the $1-billion contract, North America's biggest light-rail deal to date.

The move is also meant to avoid the controversy that dogged the TTC and Mayor David Miller last year, when the transit agency agreed to hand a $674-million subway car contract to Montreal-based Bombardier without competition in order to preserve jobs at the firm's Thunder Bay plant.

A report from a private consultant Booz Allen Hamilton had warned the TTC that a Canadian-content requirement any higher than 21.8 to 25 per cent for the new streetcars could result in the politically embarrassing event of all foreign bidders dropping out, leaving only Bombardier.

The nine city councillors that make up the commission held a special meeting yesterday, hearing from labour activists who called for a 60 per cent Canadian content provision, similar to a federal rule in the United States.

The TTC voted to call on the federal and provincial governments to come up with across-the-board rules on Canadian content in transit vehicles.

"We are committed to jobs in Canada. ... It's just how far can you push without having a competitive environment," said TTC vice-chairman Joe Mihevc, a left-leaning councillor and ally of Mr. Miller.

"We have struck the right balance between good competition and preserving good manufacturing jobs in Canada."

TTC chairman Adam Giambrone said he would have liked to see a higher number than 25 per cent. However, he moved a motion to have the TTC demand an increase in Canadian content for the optional second phase of the contract, which contemplates buying up to 480 more vehicles for the city's suburban light-rail expansion plans.

Commissioner Glenn De Baeremaeker, applauded by a handful of union activists at the meeting, moved a motion to hand the entire contract to Bombardier without competition to create Canadian jobs. He was voted down.

Bombardier could not be reached for comment last night, but company vice-president Mike Hardt had said recently that 30 per cent Canadian content was "very, very low" and would only create about 200 jobs.

Other companies that have expressed an interest in bidding on the contract include German-based Siemens and Vossloh-Kiepe, and French-based Alstom, all of which have said publicly they would include some Canadian content in their streetcars. Czech-based Skoda has also expressed an interest in bidding.

Toronto is not alone in grappling with the issue. In Montreal, Bombardier's French competitor Alstom has launched a court action challenging the Quebec government's move to force the Montreal Transit Corp. to deal exclusively with Bombardier on a $1-billion subway car order. A decision is expected next year.

In Vancouver, however, a public-private partnership is building the new Canada Line, a $2.05-billion, partly tunnelled light-rail line to Richmond, B.C., and the Vancouver airport, and all 20 new automated vehicles are being completely built in South Korea by Hyundai Rotem Co. Bombardier, which builds Vancouver's current SkyTrain vehicles, bid on the contract but lost.

The line, funded with $720-million in private investment and to be run for 30 years by a private consortium, InTransitBC, had no Canadian-content provisions in its tendering process, spokesman Steve Crombie said. This allowed it to get the latest, state-of-the-art rail technology at a good price, he said.

"It hasn't been an issue so far," Mr. Crombie said. "This is the best car you could get for the best price."

Toronto plans to buy at least 204 new low-floor streetcars at first to replace its aging fleet, if provincial and federal governments come up with the funding. If all goes according to plan, the first new cars will roll onto the city's rails in 2010.

*****

Buy Canadian?

While many other countries, including the United States, demand that local manufacturers benefit when their transit agencies buy new vehicles, recent major transit purchases in Canada have produced mixed results.

Vancouver The new Canada Line, a $2.05-billion rail line from Richmond, B.C., to Vancouver International Airport, is getting 20 automated, 41-metre, two-vehicle trains from Hyundai Rotem Co., which is manufacturing the vehicles in South Korea.

Montreal French manufacturer Alstom has taken Montreal's transit authority to court over its move - mandated by Quebec's Liberal government, which is providing 75 per cent of the funds - to deal only with Bombardier on a $1-billion subway-car order. (Montreal's rubber-wheeled cars were actually designed by Alstom and based on the Paris model.)

Toronto Mayor David Miller and the city politicians on the Toronto Transit Commission were criticized after defying bureaucratic advice and choosing to deal only with Bombardier for a $674-million subway-car contract last year, saying they wanted to preserve jobs at the firm's Thunder Bay plant. Yesterday, the TTC, which is allowing multiple bids on a $1-billion streetcar deal, voted to demand that companies include 25-per-cent Canadian content in their proposals.

Jeff Gray
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