My abortion talk with the kids

[lenaitch]

You confuse your opinions for facts, unless you only speak for yourself on what is acceptable.

I believe human life begins at conception and I support a women’s absolute, unconditional access to abortion. No I don’t like that abortion is terminating human life, but I don’t see any other option. Do we coerce women to carry to term? How to force this?

Best way to avoid abortion? Easy and free access to contraception, sex education, childcare and other state supports.

Like most other people, my opinion is based on my understanding of facts, however admittedly lay and imperfect. If human life begins at conception, then does it enjoy 'personhood' under the law? A conundrum no government can truly reconcile to the satisfaction of everyone. Is a fetus a human being? Is an acorn an oak tree? Beats me, I never studied philosophy or ethics. At the other end of the life spectrum, we now allow people to unnaturally terminate it. Some people aren't happy about that and others maybe happy with the concept but not the parameters.
And of course I speak for myself; I profess to represent no one else.
But on this issue, we seem to be on the same page, regardless of how we approach it.

 

[BurlOak]

You claim a middle ground, but your words seem to betray that. As @Northern Light correctly states, to codify abortion into criminal law seems to be an effort to find a solution looking for a solvable problem. I would argue the middle ground is quite fine with the way things are; the extremities are not.

We are at the extremity, legally. Maybe not by gov't funding, but by law.
Policy on abortion is a different thing, and it can easily be argued that funding dental and medication and eye care are more essential and are not covered.

He can't reasonably say he favours choice and then also argue that the criminal law should penalize a woman or doctor performing such a procedure by mutual agreement.

So legally, abortion is only allowed if a doctor agrees to it?

At the other end of the life spectrum, we now allow people to unnaturally terminate it. Some people aren't happy about that and others maybe happy with the concept but not the parameters.
And of course I speak for myself; I profess to represent no one else.
But on this issue, we seem to be on the same page, regardless of how we approach it.

The big difference at the other end of the spectrum is consent. The senior (presumably), must be of sound mind to be granted the right to die - it's actually right to be killed, because its a doctor who does it but is protected from prosecution.
Should be allow the caregiver to make the decision - which would be the abortion analogy. The Robert Latimer case says no - but maybe the law should be changed.
Or on the front end, should we treat a well developed life as a life - and require more than the mother to terminate it?

 

[lenaitch]

We are at the extremity, legally. Maybe not by gov't funding, but by law.
Policy on abortion is a different thing, and it can easily be argued that funding dental and medication and eye care are more essential and are not covered.

There is no criminal law. If that can be interpreted as being at an extremity, fine. Criminal liability and health funding policy are two separate issues.

So legally, abortion is only allowed if a doctor agrees to it?

It would seem so. It is a medical procedure. If you're not a doctor, you can't practice medicine.

The big difference at the other end of the spectrum is consent. The senior (presumably), must be of sound mind to be granted the right to die - it's actually right to be killed, because its a doctor who does it but is protected from prosecution.
Should be allow the caregiver to make the decision - which would be the abortion analogy. The Robert Latimer case says no - but maybe the law should be changed.
Or on the front end, should we treat a well developed life as a life - and require more than the mother to terminate it?

I realize the analogy was imperfect. The issue of the rules around consent is now being debated. Many argue that there should be a provision to 'pre-agree' while one is of sound mind in case they reach a point of diminished capacity.

One indirect but no less important issue of extending the definition of "person" (or defining 'life' or however you wish to frame it) to an entity (for want of a better word only, please) is the impact of the Charter. I can't even attempt to suss out the scope of the impact, and it would depend on any legislative wording, but it would certainly keep legal experts spinning and wealthy in book contracts.

 

[Northern Light]

We are at the extremity, legally. Maybe not by gov't funding, but by law.
Policy on abortion is a different thing, and it can easily be argued that funding dental and medication and eye care are more essential and are not covered.

No, it can't be.

Let's start by getting the facts right.

While close to 95% of all abortions performed in Canada are done in the first trimester (before 12 weeks gestation), some Canadians need access to services beyond 12 weeks. There are many reasons someone might want an abortion after 12 weeks, including a delay in scheduling an appointment, having to raise funds to travel, not knowing they were pregnant, health issues, facing a personal emergency, etc.

Depending on a person’s location, they may have to travel out of province or out of country to access abortion beyond 12 weeks. On Prince Edward Island, for example, abortion is only available until 12 weeks gestation. In Nova Scotia, until 16 weeks, and in New Brunswick, only until 14 weeks or 16 weeks (if you can pay for the procedure out-of-pocket). In Yukon and Nunavut, the gestational limit is 13 weeks.

While abortions after 20 weeks are statistically very rare (<2.5% of all abortions), there are people in Canada who require abortion beyond 20 weeks for serious and important reasons. There are only three service locations in Canada that offer abortion up to 23 weeks and 6 days (one in British Columbia, one in Southern Ontario, and one in Quebec). No providers in Canada offer abortion care beyond 23 weeks and 6 days. When they are beyond 23 weeks and 6 days, many Canadians end up having to travel to the United States to access services with little guidance or support from their governments.

Source: https://www.actioncanadashr.org/res...-09-19-access-glance-abortion-services-canada

So legally, abortion is only allowed if a doctor agrees to it?

Not exactly. If the abortion is publicly funded, in a hospital, then, generally, yes, a referral is required as with any other surgical procedure.

However, private providers and some hospital clinics do permit 'self-referral'.

However, this may not be paid for, depending on the province; as needless to say a doctor must agree, as only a doctor can legally perform the procedure.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If human life begins at conception, then does it enjoy 'personhood' under the law?

No, it does not. The legal definition of personhood is clear. Section 223(1) of the Criminal Code says that a child becomes a human being when it has "completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother." Just because my opinion is that human life begins at conception doesn't create a fact.

 

[lenaitch]

So legally, abortion is only allowed if a doctor agrees to it?

Sorry, I mis-interpreted the question to mean if it is only allowed if a doctor performs it. I actually have no idea what level of medical practitioner performs an abortion.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Sorry, I mis-interpreted the question to mean if it is only allowed if a doctor performs it. I actually have no idea what level of medical practitioner performs an abortion.

That's actually a good question. I'm curious.
Even I don't know and I was as close as can be without having a uterus.

Do only doctors perform abortions? Anyone?

 

[lenaitch]

No, it does not. The legal definition of personhood is clear. Section 223(1) of the Criminal Code says that a child becomes a human being when it has "completely proceeded, in a living state, from the body of its mother." Just because my opinion is that human life begins at conception doesn't create a fact.

But this might be the conundrum faced by legislators if they tried to craft a criminal law addressing abortion, either time frames and/or justification, as demanded by some. All of the 'elements' of the procedure would have to be defined, creating sanctions (offences) for acting outside of the law, because that's what criminal law does. The regulation of health care is a provincial responsibility and a patchwork of parameters already exists and the Canada Health Act really only deals with matters of funding although an amendment might seek better streamlining.
At the end of the day, I think all is moot because the topic remains political kryptonite and, except for those who want it banned entirely, the existing provincial health discipline policies seem to be delivering close to what most are reasonably comfortable with.

 

[Admiral Beez]

But this might be the conundrum faced by legislators if they tried to craft a criminal law addressing abortion,

I agree. Of course you can‘t craft a criminal law without first defining a crime. Even in the US, once they put aside their theocracy, they have trouble identifying the crime.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Do only doctors perform abortions? Anyone?

No. Women can perform their own, if early enough, though a prescription is required from someone authorized, not necessarily a doctor.

FAQ: Can I get the abortion pill in Canada?

Did you know that the abortion pill is now available in Ontario? It is! And as it becomes more available and accessible to people across the country, there are naturally lots of questions about it. This post covers some of our most frequently asked questions about the abortion pill.

teenhealthsource.com

 

[SunriseChampion]

No. Women can perform their own, if early enough, though a prescription is required from someone authorized, not necessarily a doctor.

FAQ: Can I get the abortion pill in Canada?

Did you know that the abortion pill is now available in Ontario? It is! And as it becomes more available and accessible to people across the country, there are naturally lots of questions about it. This post covers some of our most frequently asked questions about the abortion pill.

teenhealthsource.com

Yeah, I know about mifegymiso...I was more interested in who performs the grimy operation they do in hospitals.

 

[Northern Light]

That's actually a good question. I'm curious.
Even I don't know and I was as close as can be without having a uterus.

Do only doctors perform abortions? Anyone?

Varies by jurisdiction who is permitted to perform an abortion.

The typical default for a surgical abortion is an ObGyn.

But any doctor can receive the requisite training.

That said, California permits nurses to perform the procedure, subject to training, while other jurisdictions may permit nurse-practitioners or physician-assistants.

Planned Parenthood has some decent info (Toronto-specific)

Abortion - Planned Parenthood Toronto

There are many myths around abortion. We’re here to give you facts and resources so you can make the best decision for you.

www.ppt.on.ca

 

[Videodrome]

A friend of mine on Facebook who is super pro-life has been posting about how the movement to ban it is a largely a sham and she is right. If abortion was indeed banned, these people and groups would be out of a job with no purpose. Sort of like how people who pushed for years to make pot legal are basically redundant now that it happened here.

Did anyone else read about how Planned Parenthood took advantage of Missouri being down to one clinic barely staying open and secretly built a huge facility across from St. Louis in southern Illinois?