DavidH
Senior Member
Perhaps he should have been more clear and said: Electric trains don't pollute *here*.
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MoveOntario 2020: GO Transit Electrification
- Thread starter Hipster Duck
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
It's absolutely an investment. As is the purchase of new DMUs for the London-Aylesbury commuter line.
Some of the anti-diesel folk seem to be simply inventing stuff.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Or maybe they've been playing some Railroad Tycoon. Great series btw. Click, electrified rails! Yippie!
On a more serious note. We should not be delaying service and infrastructure improvements for the sake of waiting for electrification. The 2 projects can go ahead independantly.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Ahh the NIMBY'ists siren song. It doesn't happen "here" so I'm not worried.
RedRocket191
Senior Member
I 100% agree.
Having said that, electrification sooner is better than later. I think we can all agree to that.
DavidJamesTO
Active Member
By the time GO actually gets around to stringing catenary, I imagine all service expansions will have been underway for several years already. I can't imagine them electrifying just parts of the lines; that would be an added expense all the way around; either they'd have to change from diesel to electric partway along--a huge timewaster--or they'd have to buy engines that can run as both diesel and electric, which will raise the price even more. It's going to be a case of all or nothing.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ They could just use diesel trains for lines that are further out. It's likely that some of these trains would be express anyway, skipping a few stops. I don't imagine anyone would want to be on a GO train that stopped at every stop from Guelph to Union.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
If these NIMBYs and their politician allies manage to push the timetable for electrification forward, I'm all for it!
As for the emissions benefits, they're right for the most part. Even if the electricity used is fossil generated, electric trains are much more efficient and the emissions per unit of energy at a large power plant are much lower. In Ontario's case, much of our power comes from hydroelectricity and nuclear power, which obviously have no air emissions.
They're also right that local emissions do matter. It's obviously much more harmful to have them in the middle of the city at ground level than being dispersed from a tall stack in a more remote area.
I just hope that someone doesn't decide to settle on the "brilliant" idea of dual-mode locomotives. I can just see them deciding to cheap out and electrify to the end of Weston, and then switch over to diesel. Dual mode locomotives are much more expensive and less reliable than just stringing the catenary whenever there are more than a handful of trains a day.
As for the emissions benefits, they're right for the most part. Even if the electricity used is fossil generated, electric trains are much more efficient and the emissions per unit of energy at a large power plant are much lower. In Ontario's case, much of our power comes from hydroelectricity and nuclear power, which obviously have no air emissions.
They're also right that local emissions do matter. It's obviously much more harmful to have them in the middle of the city at ground level than being dispersed from a tall stack in a more remote area.
I just hope that someone doesn't decide to settle on the "brilliant" idea of dual-mode locomotives. I can just see them deciding to cheap out and electrify to the end of Weston, and then switch over to diesel. Dual mode locomotives are much more expensive and less reliable than just stringing the catenary whenever there are more than a handful of trains a day.
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Very, very, very good points. The last (edited) one is important, when I think about it. In the long run it would definitely be better to electrify lines entirely than electrify part of it and run dual-mode locomotives.
I hope the new Go trains will be something like the Talent. Capacity may be an issue compared to Bi-levels, but I think that with electrification many more trains could be run on a line than not electrified, right? If that was it, we could have like 5 minute intervals at rush hour, with 15-30 minute intervals all-day. It's a win-win; people getting to work don't have to wait as long for their train, and there will end up being even higher capacity than the Bi-levels. Definitely screams good, reliable service that would undoubtedly be a worthy investment.
afransen
Senior Member
Demand might get to the point where you'd want to use bi-levels on 5 or 10 minute frequencies anyway, since I imagine headways can only be reduced so much without much more sophisticated signalling (and pissing off the residents with the constant rumble of trains).
RedRocket191
Senior Member
One way to pacify said residents is to build stations so that they can ride. With smaller and more swift trains it won't add much to the schedule.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The key here is the real "progression through modes." As distance increases, travelers are best served by faster modes of transport. For example, shuttling around downtown is best done by subway and streetcar. Longer trips within the urban area are best accomplished by subway. More distant trips within the urban area (i.e. the outer bits of the 416 and the inner 905) are best served by frequent regional rail service. For any points more distant than about Mississauga, Brampton, Newmarket, and Oshawa, regional express rail is best. Nobody wants to ride a GO train with relatively uncomfortable seats making all stops for two hours to Kitchener. People will do it if there's no alternative, but it's far from optimal. Every major city in Germany or France have RegioExpress or TER trains that serve the outer bits of the urban area. It's also very important because it allows you to add stops on the regional rail line to make them a real rapid transit service. If you try to run the regional rail too far out, you'll have to keep stops infrequent or travel times would get unreasonable. These RegioExpress services should all operate at least every hour or better. They're also a good express option for people riding from inner suburban points. If one is coming along soon, it might make sense for a rider from Brampton to take the RegioExpress train if he or she is going right downtown or to another express station.
The key here is also fare integration. In Germany, for example, the ticket you buy is based entirely on the distance you're travelling. If I'm going from Berlin Hauptbahnhof to Berlin Sudkreuz, it doesn't matter whether I take the subway (U-Bahn), regional rail (S-Bahn), or even a long-distance intercity train. I can take whichever mode is fastest.
I really believe that every single new development should be centred on a GO station, and every new home should be within a reasonable walking distance or at least a quick hop on the bus. Obviously riders shouldn't have to pay an additional fare if they ride a feeder bus to the station. It's clearly not useful when there are only 6 trains a day, but we're hopefully going to have real regional rail (i.e. at least every 20 minutes each way, all day) in the relatively near future.
The key here is also fare integration. In Germany, for example, the ticket you buy is based entirely on the distance you're travelling. If I'm going from Berlin Hauptbahnhof to Berlin Sudkreuz, it doesn't matter whether I take the subway (U-Bahn), regional rail (S-Bahn), or even a long-distance intercity train. I can take whichever mode is fastest.
I really believe that every single new development should be centred on a GO station, and every new home should be within a reasonable walking distance or at least a quick hop on the bus. Obviously riders shouldn't have to pay an additional fare if they ride a feeder bus to the station. It's clearly not useful when there are only 6 trains a day, but we're hopefully going to have real regional rail (i.e. at least every 20 minutes each way, all day) in the relatively near future.
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junctionist
Senior Member
I agree, let's fast track electrification, because it's been what, over a century that we've prioritized new projects over this one time expenditure? Though if the two projects go ahead independently, then we'll probably waste money buying extra equipment.
vegeta_skyline
Senior Member
GO already owns significant portions of many of the lines that it currently runs on.
Mainlines owned by GO include;
- the entire Uxbridge subdivision (part of the Stouffville GO) mile 61 to mile 38.9 (Lincolnville) + the tracks to Uxbridge
- the entire Weston subdivision (part of the Georgetown GO) mile 0 to 17 (recently bought for 160$ million)
- the entire GO subdivision (part of the Lakeshore East GO) mile 0 to 11.7 (Oshawa)
- the majority of the Newmarket subdivision (Barrie GO) mile 12.9 to 62.9 (Downtown Barrie)
I have no doubt that the remained of this line (not used by CN mainline freights, only industrial switchers – same use as the Weston sub) will shortly be purchased once GO transit is ready to implement all-day service to Barrie which will include 2 tracking the line in all/certain portions & the construction of a grade separation over the CP line - essentially the same thing that is being done with the Georgetown line at West Toronto.
- the entire U.S.R.C. (Union Station Rail Corridor) 2.8 miles of the most complex series of tracks & switches in Canada.
- a portion of the Galt sub mile 0 to 4.8
Mainlines that GO can and should purchase in the future include;
- the Newmarket subdivision (Barrie GO) mile 3.0 to mile 12.9 (est. cost 100$ million)
- the Oakville subdivision (Lakeshore West GO) from mile 0 to 32.2 (just west of Burlington station)
infrequently used by CN mainline freights, a fair amount of industries. (est. cost 750$ million)
- the Bala subdivision (Richmond Hill GO) from mile 2.0 (USRC) to 16.1 (est. cost 150$ million)
infrequently used by CN mainline freights routed to the Oakville subdivision, no industries
- the Kingston subdivision (Lakeshore East GO) from mile 332.4 (USRC) to 314 (GO sub) not used by CN mainline freights, very few industries along the line (similar to the Weston, Newmarket & Uxbridge subdivisions) (est. cost 500$ million)
Mainlines that GO will not be able to purchase for the foreseeable future include;
- the Halton subdivision, CN’s main East-West line (the western portion of the Georgetown GO)
- the Bala subdivision north of mile 16.1, CN’s main North-South line (the northern portion of the Richmond Hill GO)
- the Oakville sub west of mile 32.2, its where CN’s mainline traffic diverts to the Halton sub
- the rest of the Galt subdivision, CP’s main East-West line (the majority of the Milton line)
Adding it all up GO transit currently owns about 120 miles of mainline corridors. With the anticipated purchase of a further 67 miles.
This would given them ownership of 187 miles of track.
The remaining 62 miles will stay under CN or CP’s ownership
(not including future planned GO lines)
Or over 75% of the track GO trains currently operate on.
In all this means;
- full ownership of the Lakeshore East, Stouffville & Barrie corridors,
- most of the Lakeshore West & Richmond Hill corridors,
- slightly more than half of the Georgetown corridor
- and a small part of the Milton corridor
All lines on which frequent all day service is planned for.
As for the future corridors...
Heres the potential of GO ownership for the expansion lines;
Lakeshore West expansion to Hamilton - high use CN line - unlikely - future frequent service route
Georgetown GO expansion to Kitchener - low use GEXR line - possible - possible frequent service route
Lakeshore West expansion to Niagara Falls - moderate use CN line - unlikely/not necessary peak use only
Bolton GO - high use CP mainline - unlikely - not necessary peak use only
Midtown GO - high use CP mainline - unlikely - not necessary peak use only
Richmond Hill GO expansion to Aurora - high use CN mainline - unlikely - not necessary peak use only
Havlock GO - low use CP spur line - possible - not necessary peak use only
Seaton GO - high use CP mainline - unlikely - not necessary peak use only
Lakeshore East GO expansion to Bowmanville - CN or CP line high use - unlikely - not necessary peak use only
As you can see most of them are anticipated to be used as only peak service (rush hour) routes and not all-day frequent service. It won't be too much of an issue for them to remain in CN or CP's hands. It is only economical for GO to purchase lines on which they plan to run frequent all day service and its only possible for GO to purchase lines that are not already in high use by CN or CP.
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RedRocket191
Senior Member
^ The above is a very accurate picture of the railway industry in Toronto, but I do think that we need to be more ambitious of our use of mainline railways in this city.
Running fast, frequent trains on all these lines and adding more stops effectively quadruples the amount of subways we have in the city. And everyone loves subways, right?
Running fast, frequent trains on all these lines and adding more stops effectively quadruples the amount of subways we have in the city. And everyone loves subways, right?