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motion passed in Legislature to disentangle GO from Blue 22

what do you think?
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Something that recognizes the importance of the corridor not just to GO, but to VIA and also for Pearson-Union service. I have a had a chance to talk with a few people working for GO and VIA while I have been doing some research and there is actually far more understanding of the importance and the need to create a proper passenger rail system than I had first thought.

Basically 4 track dedicated service will come to the Weston line, as well as Lakeshore eventually. It is just that the process of making it happen is rather messy and time consuming. For the Weston line, Blue 22 has been an important factor in limiting what they can do, or plan. Whatever GO announces for the line in the interim will be a way of increasing service, but, not to the point of causing logistical and management problems of construction in a few years time.
 
AnarchoSocialist said:
I am glad to see Blue 22 failing, as it should. But I am with unimaginative that this will not amount to much in terms of transit service upgrades in the near future.

That being said with Blue 22 now out of the picture I have a few suspicions which I am working on confirming that much bigger plans are going to go start going ahead and that something substantial could be on the way.
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That's my point. The City could now use some of that for a totally Private ROW Transit City LRT if it wanted. Railpath may now get to go ahead. Knowing GO, just because they may have a heckava track capacity, they may not be inclined to use it.
 
Knowing GO, just because they may have a heckava track capacity, they may not be inclined to use it.
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Exactly. But it is not without reason. Filling the line with GO trains or LRT or whatever else might seem good in the short term, but, doing that would also get in the way of an eventual upgrading of the corridor. In 5 years time all the added capacity will just be subjected to delays, increasing travel times, and making commuters frustrated, as well as making construction and planning more difficult.

This might not be a huge announcement, but still it is a positive step, and given the importance of the corridor, waiting a few more years for a comprehensive plan and strategy seems far better than just letting short term interests prevail.
 
S-Bahn style service on that corridor will require 4 tracks. There are several studies on the Weston Community Coalition website that say just that. The extra track will provide, at best, hourly mid-day service. Blue 22 offered us the opportunity to jump the wait for real extra track capacity by decades, but it was derailed by transit activists just like the O-Train. I just don't understand it. If it was successful, we have a world-class airport access route just like European and Asian cities. If it failed, as the transit activists all predicted, we would have a perfect right-of-way for S-Bahn service within a couple years, bought and paid for. I just don't understand how it wasn't a win-win.

The city will never build a Transit City line down the rail corridor, as they've said that all new LRT routes must be down streets to make them close to to the communities that they serve.
 
unimaginative2 said:
S-Bahn style service on that corridor will require 4 tracks. There are several studies on the Weston Community Coalition website that say just that. The extra track will provide, at best, hourly mid-day service. Blue 22 offered us the opportunity to jump the wait for real extra track capacity by decades, but it was derailed by transit activists just like the O-Train. I just don't understand it. If it was successful, we have a world-class airport access route just like European and Asian cities. If it failed, as the transit activists all predicted, we would have a perfect right-of-way for S-Bahn service within a couple years, bought and paid for. I just don't understand how it wasn't a win-win.

The city will never build a Transit City line down the rail corridor, as they've said that all new LRT routes must be down streets to make them close to to the communities that they serve.
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blue 22 would have been a private operation funded by public money. it one have cost around $20 for a single ride, hardly any stops along the way and would not serve the communities it went through. we would have been stuck with blee 22 without the chance for upgrade or change.

anyone remember how long blue 22's lease would have been?
 
If Blue 22 did work out, it's a win for the airport and for the city overall, so you can make a great case that the plan would have been win/win. One's definition of win depends on how much they think GO can do the corridor, if it really can provide a quick downtown-airport connection...if so, then the very best way to get it done would be through a failed Blue 22, which, if it went belly-up, would leave behind corridor improvements for some kind of better rail network.
 
Yes, Prometheus, I know that you and I wouldn't use it, but so what? I'll still stick to the rather plodding and inconvenient Airport Rocket (or, better yet, get a ride from friends), but if it were successful, it would be a huge boost for both tourist access to downtown and business access to the airport. Thousands of people spend $50 on cabs to the airport that can get stuck in traffic and are otherwise unreliable, not counting all the people who spend $20 for the stunningly slow Pacific Western buses.

The private sector operator would be paying for all of the trains and most of the cost of upgrading the corridor, the rest of the upgrade cost would be paid for by the higher levels of government. If, as the activists predict, it fails, it's still a fantastic way to get the corridor upgraded at virtually no cost to GO or to the city. The length of the lease is irrelevant since it would obviously be lost with a shutdown of the Blue 22 service. CN - for what it's worth - would retain ownership of all the tracks, so it would operate as a unified corridor. I think that the only mistake in the plan isn't the acquisition of the corridor. Surely CN can't expect all those upgrades for free, and then charge rent to Blue 22 and GO to operate on them.
 
we are not getting a free deal here. the upgrades & construction will be public funded. what's the point of waiting for it to fail to build a public system when we could build a public system first?

even if it was a failure, it would probably receive corporate welfare to keep it a float. remember, this is a pet project for a government friendly private company.

this is something we could have possibly been stuck with for a very long time. no sense in taking that chance. do it right the first time.
 
I really don't think Blue22 would have failed. It connected the two most important transportation nodes in the GTA with a service that is basically superior to anything offered right now. Add to that te fact that Blue22 did not have to connect any points in between meaning it had all but guaranteed the perfect configuration for maximizing its profits while being able to ignore any social benefit that may come from having the additional stations. Thinking it was going to fail really seems wishful thinking.

Blue 22 may have created infrastructure, but the same mess that exists today with ownership issues over tracks would have remained, if not made a little worse. There really was nothing good about Blue22 and good riddance too it.
 
we are not getting a free deal here. the upgrades & construction will be public funded. what's the point of waiting for it to fail to build a public system when we could build a public system first?
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Because we wouldn't get Federal funding otherwise. The Feds justified the project as one of national significance since it serves Canada's largest airport and busiest train station. That same justification simply doesn't exist for a frequency improvement on a local commuter rail line.

I don't know whether it would fail or not. I'd give it about a 50/50 chance. I do however know that we'd be better off with a fully grade-separated, four-track corridor than we would be with an intermittent three track route with level crossings.
 
Except then you are left with a corridor that is even further out of public control instead of bringing into the public domain and creating a system that would allow GO, and VIA, and even an airport shuttle too operate.

And there are any number of reasons to jusitfy investing in upgrading the corridor without resorting to a corporate welfare project. Not only does it serve current commuter needs, it will link the airport which is a critical transportation task, and it is also the line the further servers Guelph, Kitchener-Waterloo (a growing and increasingly important city) and many other parts of Southwestern Ontario. This is not a marginal corridor that needs a pet project, it is a rather critical link.
 
You don't have to convince me of the importance of serving K-W, but I strongly believe that the best bet for getting bettter service in the corridor is to provide the necessary infrastructure. More frequent express trains are only possible with full passing tracks. I know that in Europe they operate frequent services with freight and express trains on two or three tracks, but it just doesn't happen here. The studies on the capacity limitations of two or three tracks are right there on the WCC website.

How does this take it further out of the public domain? Without Blue 22, we have at best a two track corridor with a few three track segments, all owned by CN. With Blue 22, we have a four-track corridor all owned by CN. I know which I would choose.

I don't understand how this is dismissed as a corporate welfare project. It will dramatically improve access to downtown, make downtown a more attractive office location, shift people away from cars and cabs to the rails, and provide a dramatically improved rail corridor with most of the tab picked up by the feds. Countless other cities are building express trains to their airports. Is the Lower Manhattan/JFK project corporate welfare? CDG Express?
 
don't understand how this is dismissed as a corporate welfare project.
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Because it would use public money to invest in a project that would almost solely benefit a private interest who is operating a for profit business. Not only that but it is also giving them claim over part of a rail line in the form of a long term lease when that rail should in fact be held by the province in the interest of the public.

I have nothing against a private operator running a Pearson-Union express service via rail. The problem is that Blue22 would have made that happen without any real consideration towards GO or VIA. If the case where that the province took over ownership of the corridor and all the tracks and could therefore ensure that all stakeholders would have a fair opportunity to use it then great.

Instead CN retained ownership and another private interest was able to exert unfair influence over the corridor. Short term, sure it is unfortunate there are no upgrades, long term, at least there is an opportunity for proper ownership of the corridor by the province and upgrade in the interest of the public, not in the interest of Blue22.
 
Any airport rail should involve GO and VIA trains stopping at Pearson, hopefully with a corridor diversion into the airport or an airport monorail/peoplemover link to the existing corridor. Those options benefit everyone... people going to the airport from London or K-W on VIA, people coming from Brampton or downtown Toronto on GO, and those connecting onto other VIA or GO routes at Union. The Blue22 proposal was going to eliminate the possibility of VIA or GO ever providing a useful service to the airport and was going to increase service on the line but not provide any commuter benefit because all those Blue22 frequencies were overpriced and didn't have stops commuters require. There are many people commuting to the airport every day... it is a large employer.
 
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