Torontovibe
Senior Member
A poutineri rises in Cracktown.
Hey, that used to be my favourite Chinese restaurant! DAMN POUTINE!!!
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Moss Park / Queen & Sherbourne
- Thread starter Conrad Black
- Start date
Hey, that used to be my favourite Chinese restaurant! DAMN POUTINE!!!
Eug
Senior Member
When I moved to Toronto in the 90s, these kinds of scenes didn't really shock me (as I lived in downtown Montreal before that), but it was still something I tried to avoid when possible.
And now in 2009, I still try to avoid it when possible.
So, even though the area seems to have gotten a lot better in the last 10 years or so, I still would probably not move there. Well, at least not to the worst parts of it anyway.
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
First, I don't believe that mentally ill people (or low income individuals/families for that matter) should be ghettoized. Halfway houses, recovery centres and such should be spread out more throughout the downtown area and I say downtown because that is where access to support systems are mostly located for these folks. That said, Toronto mostly does a pretty good job and is continuing to improve anti-ghettoizing measures for homes for the mentally ill and lower income earners. Of course there are exceptions, Moss Park being one of them. Along with quite a few hostels, shelters, lowrises and that whole row of Victorians on the east side of Sherbourne north of Queen (or is it north of Dundas Street?) I can't think of many areas with such a high concentration of mentally ill folk in such close proximity.
adma
Superstar
dt_toronto_geek
Superstar
OK, that was good 
Northern Light
Superstar
2 Issues
2 Issues raised here are the general question of dealing with poverty and/or mental illness etc.
The other is the specific issue of this community.
For the time being I will leave the former alone, but address the latter.
***
There will always be poverty (duh); and there will always be relatively nicer, posher areas, and those that are more middling or bit needy.
That however, does not mean than any area needs to be inordinately a dumping ground for those society has been unwilling or unable to integrate.
I think DT was on point when he said that this is largely about concentration of social services/hostels/shelters etc. in one area.
I think I would focus first on Seaton House, which remains a very large (excessively so) facility that really drags on the area; and being so big it can't help but lose some folks in its bureaucracy not offering them the help and attention they so obviously need.
Doesn't help either that the buildings stand out like a sore thumb.
My thought here is the facility should be split into 3 with 2/3 of the facilities moving to other areas near central Toronto, that are not over-serviced in the same way. Move 1 facility to near Yonge/Bloor, hiding on Hayden or Scollard or something. Move another to the Annex or even Rosedale, but near Yonge, tucked into a side street with architecture that blends in seamlessly to the greater community.
Keep one facility on George, but not the current site.
Instead, buy up the beautiful old homes to the south that have been abandoned or are in severe need of work.
Restore them and move the remainder of Seaton House in there. Selling off the original site for upscale fully detached homes.
That would probably do wonders.
The Regent Park redevelopment will doubtless help.
But there are 2 other drags, one to the north is St. Jamestown.
The other to the south is Moss Park.
In the case of the former, the buildings themselves aren't so bad, they just need a good clean-up etc. etc.; but the area needs some work.
Simple and easy, reintegrate the area with the broader neighbourhood, putting the through streets back in wherever possible.
Remove the deck over Earl Street that makes it look like private road, and punch it through to Parliament on the back end.
Expand and clean-up St. Jamestown West Park (demolished the neglected heritage bldg in the middle of the Sherbourne side).
Refurb/Modernize Sherbourne Station which just looks like its in a neglected hood.
And
Finish the Rec. Center, building the long promised pool for the area.
***
Over at Moss Park, same idea, but honestly I'd tear it down and rebuild in phases.
Put the 2 north-south streets through again right away, since there's room (Ontario and Berkley?)
And put an E-W street through when redevelopment permits.
***
Lastly, the other problem shelter for size and appearance is Maxwell Meighan (the Sally Ann one)
Same deal as Seaton. Divide it into 2.
Move 1/2 out the area to a new facility that fits better into its landscape.
Rebuild the current one at 1/2 the size with a much more attractive facade and with better facilities to help those it serves.
***
All in all I don't think it needs to cost a penny over a $Billion, money well spent!
2 Issues raised here are the general question of dealing with poverty and/or mental illness etc.
The other is the specific issue of this community.
For the time being I will leave the former alone, but address the latter.
***
There will always be poverty (duh); and there will always be relatively nicer, posher areas, and those that are more middling or bit needy.
That however, does not mean than any area needs to be inordinately a dumping ground for those society has been unwilling or unable to integrate.
I think DT was on point when he said that this is largely about concentration of social services/hostels/shelters etc. in one area.
I think I would focus first on Seaton House, which remains a very large (excessively so) facility that really drags on the area; and being so big it can't help but lose some folks in its bureaucracy not offering them the help and attention they so obviously need.
Doesn't help either that the buildings stand out like a sore thumb.
My thought here is the facility should be split into 3 with 2/3 of the facilities moving to other areas near central Toronto, that are not over-serviced in the same way. Move 1 facility to near Yonge/Bloor, hiding on Hayden or Scollard or something. Move another to the Annex or even Rosedale
, but near Yonge, tucked into a side street with architecture that blends in seamlessly to the greater community.Keep one facility on George, but not the current site.
Instead, buy up the beautiful old homes to the south that have been abandoned or are in severe need of work.
Restore them and move the remainder of Seaton House in there. Selling off the original site for upscale fully detached homes.
That would probably do wonders.
The Regent Park redevelopment will doubtless help.
But there are 2 other drags, one to the north is St. Jamestown.
The other to the south is Moss Park.
In the case of the former, the buildings themselves aren't so bad, they just need a good clean-up etc. etc.; but the area needs some work.
Simple and easy, reintegrate the area with the broader neighbourhood, putting the through streets back in wherever possible.
Remove the deck over Earl Street that makes it look like private road, and punch it through to Parliament on the back end.
Expand and clean-up St. Jamestown West Park (demolished the neglected heritage bldg in the middle of the Sherbourne side).
Refurb/Modernize Sherbourne Station which just looks like its in a neglected hood.
And
Finish the Rec. Center, building the long promised pool for the area.
***
Over at Moss Park, same idea, but honestly I'd tear it down and rebuild in phases.
Put the 2 north-south streets through again right away, since there's room (Ontario and Berkley?)
And put an E-W street through when redevelopment permits.
***
Lastly, the other problem shelter for size and appearance is Maxwell Meighan (the Sally Ann one)
Same deal as Seaton. Divide it into 2.
Move 1/2 out the area to a new facility that fits better into its landscape.
Rebuild the current one at 1/2 the size with a much more attractive facade and with better facilities to help those it serves.
***
All in all I don't think it needs to cost a penny over a $Billion, money well spent!
UserNameToronto
Active Member
From Blogto:
http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/09/...beginning_for_the_dundas-sherbourne_corridor/
After nearly a year in business serving curry and nacho versions of Quebec's famous dish, Smoke's Poutinerie owner Ryan Smolkin is set to open his second location later this month directly across from the infamous Filmore's strip club at 203 Dundas East. It's pretty much smack dab in the middle of a part of the city known more for guns and girls than gourmet anything.
In fact, a recent article in the Toronto Star ranked the Dundas-Sherbourne corridor the worst in Toronto for violent crime. Crack dealers, strippers and scores of homeless are all part of the mix.
Wondering if all the negative press this neighbourhood's received is accurate, I caught up with Smolkin to chat about his venture and his newly adopted surroundings.
When I ask him some of the reasons for selecting this new 'hood, it's pretty clear he's done his homework. Smolkin fires off a slew of qualities that attracted him to the area. "First off, it's central; only a short walk from Dundas Square. And the proximity to Ryerson is a real plus. I see a lot of young professionals in the area... way more than some people would have you believe. Of course, there's a seedy element, but that's not everyone on the street. There's an eclectic mix of people here. It's a totally untapped market."
The area is also chock-full of tourists staying at the three hotels in the immediate vicinity. And while I would imagine most of them head west rather than east of Jarvis when they leave to explore the city, the truth is that poutine is quite the attraction for those looking to sample some authentic Canadian cuisine.
As we continue it becomes pretty clear that an intriguing combination of pragmatism and idealism mark Smolkin's observations.
"This is one of the few areas in Toronto's core that's priced at fair-market value. And gentrification is always taking place. I'm not interested in the past. It's the future I care about."
It appears he's not the only one. A new condo is slated for development a few footsteps west and the provincial government has recently purchased the former Sears office building at 222 Jarvis. They plan to share the space with the ever-expanding Ryerson.
"I think it's a good sign", suggests Smolkin. "As the area around Jarvis gets redeveloped, I'm confident it'll spread."
And he's playing his own part in this process. "I believe in the neighbourhood so much that I bought the whole building." Beyond the street-oriented restaurant, Smolkin is relocating his office space and catering division to Dundas as well. He also has plans to make it the home base for his soon-to-launch mobile unit, a sort of souped up chip truck that'll make the rounds to events and hot spots throughout the city.
One thing is certain - he isn't second guessing his decision to locate here. And he can cite some positive signs that he's already seen. "When I redid the stucco on my building, my neighbor decided to as well. There's something infectious about taking care of your property."
Perhaps it's this very optimism that the area so desperately needs? Instead of extra police officers maybe we just need more intrepid entrepreneurs?
"Come and talk to me in five years," Smolkin says. "I have great faith that this neighbourhood will succeed."
MBS-Guru
Active Member
smolkin is fighting a long hard battle .... it may take years (like 10-15) before the area sees a remarkable difference (That's if it doesn't get worse). The number of shelters/rooming houses in the area will not be decreasing, in fact they may be growing ...... keep in mind that the homeless and mental illness population continues to go up year after year. To many, the area looks better than 5-7 years ago but that's just on the surface, many of the visual impact have been driven to the back-alleys and out of sight but that doesn't mean the area is better imo, they're just lurking behind the curtains so to sepak. I admire his this guy but i just hope he's got a good security system in place b/c he'll be needing it.
cracktowner
New Member
Totally agreed. Other than ‘curing’ mental illness, poverty and drug use outright, dilution is the solution.
Yes, Toronto does deserve some praise, particularly for putting affordable rental units on high brow Pears Ave.
Agreed also with a few musings of my own -
-The School House is part of the Seaton House compound. It’s an historic building where the very young men are kept. I would keep the School House as young men's hostel.
-Vacate all of the main Seaton House building and the old bathhouse. Refurbish the abandoned mansions to retain the shelter and programs for alcoholics. Alcohol addiction is what Seaton House knows and excels at.
-From the carcass of Seaton House a series of smaller of hostels should be created across Toronto that specialize. The needs and challenges of crack addicts are different than alcoholics, young than old, etc. A one size-fits-all approach to homelessness is not working. Large hostels become super-attractors for the drug trade.
-Architect Paul Reuber has already imagined a spectacular redesign for Moss Park. He retains the buildings, but surrounds the frontage with live/work/retail Victorian repros. The drawings are no longer online, but I remember being very impressed. (even though he deserves a flogging for putting a main floor gym in his new Ryerson student rez with no retail store space. Yuck!)
cracktowner
New Member
Pages??!!! Quit your whining and get your ass over here!!!!
UserNameToronto
Active Member
Other newish neighbourhood developments around Queen & Sherbourne:
- Upside Dive (vintage/secondhand) just E on Queen
- Beside it, a flower shop that looks kind of classy
- Beside the flowershop is the former location of the He & She Clothing Gallery ("We're Moving!" signs went up this past week).
Good news, no?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
cracktowner:
One axonometric drawing of the scheme can be found in John Sewell's Shape of the City.
AoD
One axonometric drawing of the scheme can be found in John Sewell's Shape of the City.
AoD
UserNameToronto
Active Member
Screencap:
Attachments
cracktowner
New Member
I’ve browsed in Upside Dive a few times and they have nice stuff, but Filter or Commute Home it’s not. There’s another vintage store there – Junky Gems or something? These types of stores have a long history in the area so unfortunately I don’t think this is heralding much.
The vacant/underused art gallery spaces are going to be the key, in fact I think an influx of artists is what the area has been longing for. One day these lease prices will be the stuff of legend.
Community Council yesterday approved the plan to remove boulevard parking from Britain Street. Along with this a sidewalk will be added on the north side of the street. A small but significant improvement to the area.