Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

[Charles]

These are the questions to be answered once MOOSE is ready to apply for measures which do affect the public, such as subsidies, expropriations, construction and eventually: operation. As Allendale correctly remarks, MOOSE is nowhere close to that, therefore, I don't see any relevance in your questions for this forum at this point...

And what MOOSE is doing now isn't affecting the public??? What about the court injunctions that try to hold up or reverse decisions made by municipal councils. What about applications to the Competition Bureau, once again trying to impede actions taking by local councils? What about the potential impacts on the operation of the Trillium Line and future Stage 2 LRT expansion?

If you don't believe my questions are relevant, then please simply ignore me and stop responding to them.

 

[Urban Sky]

What about the court injunctions that try to hold up or reverse decisions made by municipal councils.

You mean that the CTA had to remind the City of Ottawa that abandoning a federally regulated right of way requires the owner to complete the federal abandonment process, because the City of Ottawa apparently doesn't employ anyone who is sufficiently aware of the laws in this country?

What about applications to the Competition Bureau, once again trying to impede actions taking by local councils?

Keeping options open for the future is generally in the interest of the public. Especially as an Ottawan, it might be worthwhile to walk from the Government Convention Centre to Union Station (i.e. from the old station to the new station) to better understand this concept...

What about the potential impacts on the operation of the Trillium Line and future Stage 2 LRT expansion?

I just answered this question:

These are the questions to be answered once MOOSE is ready to apply for measures which do affect the public, such as subsidies, expropriations, construction and eventually: operation. As Allendale correctly remarks, MOOSE is nowhere close to that, therefore, I don't see any relevance in your questions for this forum at this point...

If you don't believe my questions are relevant, then please simply ignore me and stop responding to them.

I would, but I'm tired of having your preemptive NIMBY protests monopolise this discussion. Everyone in this threat is well aware of your objections by now so why don''t you just use the time to prepare your arguments for when MOOSE actually starts taking steps which affect the public and you as a citizen?

 

[Allandale25]

We are in a subforum for questions of infrastructure and transportation, not: corporate finance and accounting.

Okay, then, it's less your question which is ridiculous, it's that you seriously expect MOOSE to answer it...

Refer back to my analogy with my medical records, tax returns and social insurance number: I'm not going to share them with you, unless I feel "compelled by either the law or by the strength of your arguments that doing so is in the interest of myself and of my personal stakeholders..."

If the moderators feel I'm asking questions that aren't relevant to this subform I am completely open to hearing that from them.

Again, regarding your analogy, people have questions about Metrolinx , TTC and the private sector's abilities to deliver in the GTHA (look at all the Burlington Station questions) so I see no difference here or need to change what I'm posting.

Moose's proponents don't have to answer. I get that. But I'll still ask questions I think are relevant for the transit users who would use any form of transportation operated by any entity in Ottawa.

 

[Urban Sky]

If the moderators feel I'm asking questions that aren't relevant to this subform I am completely open to hearing that from them.

I'm not exactly impressed by the moderators and how they chose when to interfere into the discussions here and when not, but I would prefer to discuss that with them if they would actually reveal themselves rather than making nontransparent and nonpublic decisions...

Again, regarding your analogy, people have questions about Metrolinx , TTC and the private sector's abilities to deliver in the GTHA (look at all the Burlington Station questions) so I see no difference here or need to change what I'm posting.

Moose's proponents don't have to answer. I get that. But I'll still ask questions I think are relevant for the transit users who would use any form of transportation operated by any entity in Ottawa.

Your questions are relevant in holding the organisations you just listed accountable, because their projects are already at a stage where they apply for measures which do affect the public, such as subsidies, expropriations, construction and eventually: operation. As I've said before, this is not yet the case for MOOSE and I agree with you that it doesn't look like this is going to change anytime soon...

 

[Charles]

You mean that the CTA ...

Actually no, that's not what I mean. The CTA is neither a court of law, nor is it the Competition Bureau. I was referring to the Chelsea line situation as one example where MOOSE submitted affidavits in the Quebec Superior Court seeking an injunction, and complaints to the Competition Bureau claiming "abuse of dominant position".

The Chelsea line is one particular example where the CTA has already ruled that it is not under Federal jurisdiction, the line has been discontinued, the local politicians have made certain decisions about the future use of the corridor, and MOOSE is trying to stop them or reverse those decisions.

If you were to actually read my posts both here and on SSF, you might see that I've never disagreed with a CTA ruling.

 

[Urban Sky]

Actually no, that's not what I mean. The CTA is neither a court of law, nor is it the Competition Bureau. I was referring to the Chelsea line situation as one example where MOOSE submitted affidavits in the Quebec Superior Court seeking an injunction, and complaints to the Competition Bureau claiming "abuse of dominant position".

The Chelsea line is one particular example where the CTA has already ruled that it is not under Federal jurisdiction, the line has been discontinued, the local politicians have made certain decisions about the future use of the corridor, and MOOSE is trying to stop them or reverse those decisions.

If you were to actually read my posts both here and on SSF, you might see that I've never disagreed with a CTA ruling.

I respect and defend the right of governments, organisations and individuals to seek clarification if they question the legality of actions taken by other governments, organisations and individuals. Don't you?

 

[Charles]

I respect and defend the right of governments, organisations and individuals to seek clarification if they disagree with the legality of actions taken by other governments, organisations and individuals. Don't you?

Then please respect my rights as an individual as well to ask questions and to state my opinions.

And yes, I support MOOSE's right to use the courts, the Competition Bureau, the CTA, just like any other entity. That doesn't mean I have to agree with their plan and their use of these legal tool. I still believe that there is insufficient ridership for the railway network they are proposing, that the costs far outweigh any benefits, that their plan to finance it is completely non-viable, and so on. So, despite having the right to use the courts, I still think it is a complete waste of time and energy.

 

[kEiThZ]

We are in a subforum for questions of infrastructure and transportation, not: corporate finance and accounting.

Moose is asking to displace existing and planned service in favour of their proposal, which will have significant impacts on the public. They are effectively resorting to legal trolling that will cost the taxpayer millions. And you think calls for transparency are not warranted.

I too agree with Charles. I don't think they have employees. They're a startup probably run onMr. Potvin's kitchen table. There's actually nothing wrong with that.

Not is there anything wrong with the private sector taken on activities normally in the public sector. Just look at what Space X has done with NASA.

What is, however, deplorable is the constant evasion and misleading answers to basic questions, and the lazy attacks on existing plans from someone whose best case scenario is worse service for residents inside the Greenbelt. You won't, for example, see Elon Musk trashing NASA.

At this point, Mr. Potvin is more an internet and legal troll than a transportation startup CEO. What has he actually accomplished to better transportation in Ottawa-Gatineau than keep the city's lawyers employed?

And even that would be tolerable, if he weren't constantly attacking Stage 2, in an effort to delay the inevitable end of his proposal post-Stage 2.

Believe it or not, I was sincerely interested in Moose when I first heard about it. The more I read, the more I understood what a terrible idea it was. And especially so, for any taxpayer actually living inside the Greenbelt. To date, not one person has been able to show how this proposal benefits residents inside the Greenbelt, over and above Stage 2. Instead, we get nonsense like,"Won't anybody please think of the rurals...."

 

[OCCheetos]

You won't, for example, see Elon Musk trashing NASA.

I think I've missed the part where Mr. Potvin "trashed" OC Transpo...

 

[kEiThZ]

OK. Please tell me how a corporate entity with no revenue, no investors, and no viable financial plans is able to create any form of infrastructure or effective transportation network.

That's what bothers me about a lot of the supporters of MOOSE and the proposed regional railway network on this forum. The focus is on what is technically possible rather than looking at what is a solid business case. If you can't afford to operate a railway network, then that network will never exist.

Exactly. A bunch of railfans fantasizing and cheering on a troll costing taxpayer dollars who don't give s fuck about actual transit users on Ottawa.

I sincerely somebody pulls a similar stunt in Toronto so they learn first hand how ridiculous this nonsense is.

 

[OCCheetos]

And even that would be tolerable, if he weren't constantly attacking Stage 2, in an effort to delay the inevitable end of his proposal post-Stage 2.

Believe it or not, I was sincerely interested in Moose when I first heard about it. The more I read, the more I understood what a terrible idea it was. And especially so, for any taxpayer actually living inside the Greenbelt. To date, not one person has been able to show how this proposal benefits residents inside the Greenbelt, over and above Stage 2. Instead, we get nonsense like,"Won't anybody please think of the rurals...."

Again, I don't know where the attacks on Stage 2 were, but maybe you can provide a source on that.

Well, for one, you get two tracks instead of just one on the Trillium Line. And then you also get big infrastructure spending at no cost to taxpayers: Walkways/cycleways across the PoW bridge, multiuse pathways along rails (which Chelsea is already doing by replacing rails...), and I think I've already mentioned some touristic purposes.

Also, with MOOSE apparently committing to double tracking the Trillium Line, would it not still be theoretically possible to continue existing Trillium Line operations and just interline MOOSE trains in between?
I get that that's not what MOOSE is going for, but can anyone explain why that wouldn't be a reasonable fallback? After all, people seem adamant that MOOSE couldn't possibly afford to add extra trains to achieve Trillium Line levels of service...

 

[kEiThZ]

I think I've missed the part where Mr. Potvin "trashed" OC Transpo...

You've missed a lot of things. Feel free to go back and read the entire thread SSP. I have. And there's no need to rehash it here.

And not just OC Transpo. Regularly impugns the mayor. And for what? Not just turning over the Trillium Line to him? How sad for Mr. Potvin the we don't live in a corrupt country where public officials just sign over public assets to private interests. You can read those attacks on SSP too.

 

[kEiThZ]

Again, I don't know where the attacks on Stage 2 were, but maybe you can provide a source on that.

Well, for one, you get two tracks instead of just one on the Trillium Line. And then you also get big infrastructure spending at no cost to taxpayers: Walkways/cycleways across the PoW bridge, multiuse pathways along rails (which Chelsea is already doing by replacing rails...), and I think I've already mentioned some touristic purposes.

Also, with MOOSE apparently committing to double tracking the Trillium Line, would it not still be theoretically possible to continue existing Trillium Line operations and just interline MOOSE trains in between?
I get that that's not what MOOSE is going for, but can anyone explain why that wouldn't be a reasonable fallback? After all, people seem adamant that MOOSE couldn't possibly afford to add extra trains to achieve Trillium Line levels of service...

Mr. Potvin talks out of both sides of his mouth, so to speak. On one hand, he'll do wonders and double track the line. On the other hand, he can't commit to frequencies as good as Stage 2. Ask him about it, and you'll get is a dodge. Ask him about compatibility and he'll tell you that maybe OC Transpo should just turn over the line. He hasn't yet shown how OC Transpo and Moose will share the tracks.

How nice for him though that there are useful idiots gullible enough to buy his codswallop and cheer on his plan based on railfan hypotheticals.

Again, if his plan is so great, why isn't OC Transpo jumping to get a second track? Do you think OC Transpo wouldn't love the added capacity and to share the costs?

 

[Allandale25]

I'd just like to draw the attention to this September quote by Mr. Potvin in the context of Moose's view of what should happen in the region. He believes that competition to the publicly-funded, approved, regional plan is a good thing. When he's talk about Mayor Watson below, it might as well be seen as commentary on the vast majority of Ottawa Council, and the Provincial and Federal government, notwithstanding some supportive comments for the Moose plan by one MP who represents Hull.

“Evidently Mr. Watson sees a region-wide commercial rail initiative as competition, however in our assessment, it is highly complementary to the City of Ottawa’s stated mandate and goals,” MOOSE director general Joseph Potvin said. “In any case, entrepreneurs do not shy away from competition.”

“The mayor is driven by political forces. The professional staff are driven by rules, including Section 138 of the Canada Transportation Act.”

Potvin says despite Watson’s observations, the MOOSE project is moving forward.

“Both the engineering and financial studies of MOOSE Consortium are about to get underway,” Potvin said. “At present MOOSE is finalizing the terms of reference for both the engineering and financial studies. Then we will select one of the two large civil engineering companies that responded to our request for expressions of interest. The consortium has already selected which of the large financial analytics firms will undertake the operational revenue study. Several specialty sub-contractor firms are also lined up for each of these.

“Once we run this full package by the investment syndicators, and accommodate their feedback, we’ll announce which companies will lead the work, and we’ll publicly share the details. At that time MOOSE consortium will formalize its discussions with the Algonquin Anishinabeg National Tribal Council, the federal government organizations (the National Capital Commission, the Canadian Transportation Agency, Rail Safety Operations at Transport Canada, Heritage Canada, and others), as well as various entities of the two provinces and 16 municipalities.

“We’re sorry that we can’t be precise about dates, as these involve negotiation and coordination about precise commitments amongst multiple firms,” Potvin said. “However this is moving very quickly.”

Speaking of "quickly", it's now almost March of 2018.

 

[kEiThZ]

Let's simplify the discussion:

1) Can anybody explain how Moose's plans as proposed (not using future hypotheticals) benefit Ottawa residents?

2) How many of you commenting actually use transit in Ottawa?

Heck, I'd like answers to these questions from Mr. Potvin too.