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Moose Rail (National Capital Region)

Why is the CTA only sending letters now on this subject?
Because it took Potvin to directly challenge Ottawa since Transport Canada were asleep at the switch. Potvin's challenges go back (six?) years. It started with a letter of warning to Ottawa Council, and it was ignored. All documented previously in this string, fully linked and itemized.

Quick side note. I assume those images are from Moose's submission to the CTA? Do you have a link?
No, there are no photos in their submission:
https://www.letsgomoose.ca/wp-conte...ation_CertificateOfFitness_2016-06-29_PDF.pdf

In terms of the bridge, what's wrong with having a transfer point at Bayview between heavy rail to/from Hull (and beyond) and Ottawa's LRT network?
Because Moose have the right, like any other accredited railway, to run over an *intact* line that's protected by Federal law and protected to allow the use of as Moose wishes to do. That line's intact integrity is the cause d'etre of Capital Railway having to be federally regulated in the first place. The responsibility lies with Capital Railway (sole owners being OC Transpo, for City of Ottawa) to respect the terms of their licence.

On that point, if accredited by the CTA and meeting other federal requirements, (not least the Railway Safety Act) a competing or even an overhead passenger carrier can petition for use of GO's rail network. And their stations. Costs and other responsibilities must be met, and if contested, adjudicated by the CTA or (IIRC) Transport Canada, possibly the Governor in Council of the Ministry of Transport. Recourse is provided to Federal Court(s) if further disputed.

It's all been presented prior in this string and the VIA string.
 
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So your assumption is that your fare revenue would match your expenses? Does the Moose plan contain further details on how this would be achieved? How would you avoid the UP Express experience (which is also diesel)?

Revenue to a real-estate development company will be a bit broader than UPX which really only sells railway service. Build a high-lease mall (for the area) on-top of the stations and actual ticket revenue becomes far less important.

Heck, they even have the option of building all residential as a single-detached condo neighbourhood and building railway operations into the condo fees as a common amenity. Heck, I would even buy into such a neighbourhood if fees were on the order of $150/month or less.

Long-term operations of a railway isn't the goal. The goal is to unload what is currently very low value land at a substantial profit with a rather complicated loss-leader.
 
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Even domestically, the outlandish crazy idea of a privately-operated "luxury land cruise" tourist train in the Rockies actually succeeded into one of the world's most profitable and a Top10 railway excursion (Rocky Mountaineer now shows up in the same bucket lists as Oriential Express and other famous trains).
One quick comment on this is that it's a tourist train not a commuter rail train as is being discussed for Ottawa. Also, if it hadn't been for the 1990 cuts to VIA Rail, that corridor would still be used by VIA.
 
Heck, they even have the option of building all residential as a single-detached condo neighbourhood and building railway operations into the condo fees as a common amenity.

Interesting idea. I'm on my condo board. If the calculations were ever done I'd be interested in seeing the math and the amount of the fee per resident.

Also, I wonder if John Tory's team considered a similar concept for Smart Track?
 
Except for millions in bridge repair.
Not a penny. I suggest you do some reading, why is that such a difficult thing for some posters? MOOSE offered to do that quite some time ago, been linked and documented in this string. I defer from further comment on the matter, my patience grows short.
Revenue to a real-estate development company will be a bit broader than UPX which really only sells railway service. Build a high-lease mall (for the area) on-top of the stations and actual ticket revenue becomes far less important.

Heck, they even have the option of building all residential as a single-detached condo neighbourhood and building railway operations into the condo fees as a common amenity. Heck, I would even buy into such a neighbourhood if fees were on the order of $150/month or less.

Long-term operations of a railway isn't the goal. The goal is to unload what is currently very low value land at a substantial profit with a rather complicated loss-leader.
This, in fact, is exactly what Brightline is doing in Florida:
Real Estate News
July 12, 2017 6:02 PM
The builder of Florida’s high-speed train is getting into the apartment business
By Rene Rodriguez
rrodriguez@miamiherald.com

The developer of Florida’s upcoming Brightline train service is getting into the rental apartment business.

Florida East Coast Industries (FECI), the company behind the $3 billion, 235-mile express train system that will eventually connect Orlando to Miami, is launching a new real estate brand, to be called Park-Line.

The initial offering will be three towers of rental apartments. The first tower, due in 2018, will offer 290 units ranging from studios to two-bedrooms at Brightline’s West Palm Beach station.

The other two towers, to be at the MiamiCentral station in downtown, will offer a combined 816 units ranging from studios to three-bedrooms and are due in 2019.

The exact street addresses for the new buildings are not yet available. The MiamiCentral station stretches along NW First Avenue from Third to Eighth streets.


“Park-Line residences are designed for people on the move who want to live and travel smarter,” said Daniel Quintana, vice president of development for Florida East Coast Industries, in a statement. “Each of the innovative towers in West Palm Beach and Miami will expand residents’ playground and working options by utilizing a vast variety of transit options just steps away from their front door.”

Train service from West Palm Beach to Fort Lauderdale is expected to begin in late summer. The Fort Lauderdale-Miami leg will begin operations in early fall.

FECI will team up with the Lincoln Property Company to develop the residential buildings, which will boast floor-to-ceiling windows and designer finishes.

The 11-acre, live-work-play MiamiCentral station will include a 50,000 square-foot food hall anchored by Monger, a new restaurant by celebrity chef brothers Bryan and Michael Voltaggio. There will also be 180,000 square feet of retail and 300,000 square feet of Class-A office space.

MiamiCentral, which is expected to open by the end of 2017, will eventually add a Tri Rail stop. The existing Metrorail and Metromover Government Station at 101 NW First St. is located two blocks away.

“One of the things we've been seeing in recent years is the growing urbanization of Miami,” said Alyce Robertson, executive director of the Downtown Development Agency. “Mass transit is one of the big drivers of that trend. You’re seeing more opportunities for people to ditch their cars, because you can get around downtown once you’re here. The addition of apartments at MiamiCentral opens up a lot of tremendous opportunities.”


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MiamiCentral train station begins to take shape
All Board Florida's bid to get high-speed trains from Miami to Orlando begins to take shape in downtown Miami.

Jose A. Iglesias Miami Herald
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/real-estate-news/article161031124.html

Bear in mind though, at this time, Moose and the associates of the Consortium have no plans to extend a spur to such a station, but an application has been made to 'lease' space on existing railways. The future may hold something equally as dynamic for *modern* Canada....but the concept is a bit rich for many Canadians it seems. Mediocrity and Compliance to the Norm pervades many, if not most.

Europe and the US are far ahead on many modern concepts. And may I add? China. God help this nation embracing free-trade and the mindset needed to make it work at this rate...

MiamiCentral, which is expected to open by the end of 2017, will eventually add a Tri Rail stop. The existing Metrorail and Metromover Government Station at 101 NW First St. is located two blocks away.
Private and Public working together, instead of at odds. What a concept....

Cue the rants: "Not with my tax dollars". Brightline, of course, has *zero* tax support.
 
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That sounds costly. Any estimates available?

It's costing them 250k just to put gates up on the bridge. I can't imagine that revitalization to the point where it can support regular rail traffic is going to be cheap.

And I would guess, Moose is certainly not going to be putting capital upfront.

Moose to Ottawa: "Hey. Why don't you spend millions now? We'll reimburse your later."
Moose to CTA: "We said we'd pay them back. We just never said when...."

I am guessing the city would be far more enthusiastic if the proposal was more concrete and actually in the city's interests.
 
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Further to the above "zero tax support" claim, some in the US (coughautomotivecough money) are trying to dispute it:
Brian Mast, Brightline exec clash over public money for railroad
Scott PowersJune 22, 2017, 6:02 pm


The Treasure Coast’s U.S. Rep. Brian Mast and a key railroad executive behind the proposed Brightline high-speed train clashed in Congress Thursday with Mast contending the company is getting public tax dollar subsidies despite claims to the contrary.

The sparring came between Mast and Florida East Coast Industries’ executive director Mike Reininger during a hearing of the U.S. House Transportation and Infrastructure Subcommittee on Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials, delving into the trains’ opponents contention that the enterprise has disguised public funding.

The broader picture is of a battle over whether that companies’ sister company All Aboard Florida, which will operate the Brightline trains, will be able to build and operate a passenger-service train system capable of going 120-mph that would link South Florida and Orlando. Many political leaders and activists in the roll-over counties between West Palm Beach and Orlando, including Mast, oppose the train.

Mast, a Republican from Palm City, challenged company claims that it is 100 percent privately-funded; that some of the federally-backed loans and private equity bonds it pursued include federal money; that the $211 million construction of the railroad station at Orlando International Airport is essentially an All Aboard Florida subsidy since that train may be the station’s only tenant; and that grade crossings and bridges that must be maintained or upgraded by local governments would amount to public money needed by the company.

Reininger disputed each point at least in part, contending that only interest reductions in the federally-guaranteed loans and bonds would constitute public money, and the bond program was specifically created by Congress to spur private investment such as All Aboard Florida; that All Aboard Florida would be paying fair-market rent to the Orlando airport for the train station; that the grade crossings are maintained by local governments through age-old agreements; and that the company would be investing “substantially” in the bridge upgrades.

“It’s not publicly funded at all. It’s completely investment of private capital,” Reininger said.

Mast sounded unconvinced.

“Despite their dishonest claims to the contrary, All Aboard Florida has repeatedly pursued public, taxpayer-funded financing,”Mast stated in a news release issued after the hearing. “Floridians deserve the truth about who is paying for All Aboard Florida, as well as why they are failing to address critical safety and economic concerns.”

All Aboard Florida didn’t sound worried.

“We thank Chairman Denham and the members of the subcommittee for the opportunity to present our views and their continued excitement and support for the project,” the company said in a statement it released afterwards. “The company has invested $1.3 billion of private capital to date, spurring thousands of jobs and generating significant economic impact for the state of Florida.”

An opposition group, Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida issued a statement claiming victory in this battle.

“AAF has claimed that it is a private enterprise. But the evidence does not support this claim. AAF has, to date, been unable to raise private capital to finance its rail project without the benefit of public—as in, government—subsidies. Today we start the latest adventure of disclosing AAF’s latest attempt to seek government subsidies—this time by seeking a multi-billion-dollar loan subsidized by the US taxpayers,” CARE FL Chairman Brent Hanlon stated in a news release issued by the organization. “At every twist and turn the company has sought handouts and subsidies from government. Their desire for subsidies is insatiable, unquenchable and inexhaustible.

3 Comments
  1. f70aafa5b9ef34b95ab9380e983ac7ba
    Chris Walker
    June 23, 2017 at 7:13 pm

    All forms of transportation receive some type of public subsidy. Airports, seaports, and certainly the highways (remember when the Highway Trust Fund went insolvent?). Besides, a high speed trail from Orlando to Miami (and a few stops in between) is overdue. As usual, a small but vocal minority stands in the way of progress. Sadly, their obstructionist behavior has probably prevented any effort by Brightline to add future stops in the Treasure Coast.

  2. 818f8d2ac342aedba715cbf3836d802e
    Robert Meixner
    June 24, 2017 at 12:42 pm

    I have to agree with Chris Walker above. Subsidies are a way of life and business in the U.S. Tax breaks and infrastructure accommodations are regularly employed by local and state governments to attract businesses. Generally, this kind of activity is seen as an investment in economic growth. The alleged subsidies in the Brightline case seem pretty innocuous to me – interest rate savings and guarantees are not real cash subsidies unless the guarantees have to be paid. It’s way past time the U.S. had a viable passenger rail system on a par with Europe and Japan.

  3. 739ef24e12f1e3de90670df645fc6cd6
    Mark Lacari
    June 24, 2017 at 1:18 pm

    People like Mast need to step out of the way of progress. This Anything But Rail Syndrome has to end now. All the Treasure Coast has done is constantly forestall the inevitable. They have wasted millions of tax paying dollars on countless lawsuits that have ended up doing more damage to themselves. Every form of Transportation is subsidized from Airlines to our Highways. This Rail Project is a Private Project and I would like to know where Mast is getting info from that this project is getting federal funding? It sounds like lunacy on his part.
  1. http://floridapolitics.com/archives/240552-brian-mast-brightline-exec-clash-public-money-railroad
 
Existing transit riders have the risk of the Moose proposal disrupting or delaying the City Council approved transit plan, including Phase 2. Even if you believe the Moose plan is better and/or could work somehow with the Phase 2 LRT plan, given what's happened in Brampton, Hamilton, and Toronto with their transit plans, are you even willing to acknowledge the risk of delays impacting Ottawa residents who want better transit service?

I wouldn't be too worried. There's no way Moose will be allowed to disrupt Stage 2. If that ever happened quite a few politicians at all three levels of government would see voters serve them their walking papers. So Moose will have to find a way to work with Stage 2. The challenge for Moose is really Gatineau. Are they interested in some connection across that bridge and will it be LRT in the future. If so, I assume Moose will have to start deciding how they'll build LRT out to the exurbs they want to develop. Because there's no way that the Cities of Gatineau and Ottawa will change plans to HRT to help MOOSE.
 
Are you privy to it because you're voluntarily advocating for Moose and attending meetings, or are you working for them? Just curious.

Look at his post history. He's got an inflated sense of something..... Thinks Google searches count as insider info. It's like an old guy who just discovered Google and has time on his hands in retirement. Nothing in his posting history demonstrate any professional knowledge in engineering, development, infrastructure, regulatory affairs, etc.

I still remember when he told us that there was no way HSR was going to stop at Guelph. And he apparently had insider knowledge on that. And not a peep after Collenette's report came out.

I'd take any claims from him with a gigantic grain of salt.
 
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I remain very skeptical. Apart from a connection across the Ottawa River on the Prince of Wales Bridge (which should have been figured out a long time ago) there's nothing that Moose is offering that buses can or already do. Many of the best commuting areas outside of Ottawa are not well served by any existing rail corridor; and without direct downtown access, what's the point?

1st, Moose being private means that there is no requirement of taxpayer subsidy to initiate dependable passenger rail service across the region. (As we know some commuter/passenger rail is subsidized to the tune of 70% by the taxpayer).

2nd, Moose's plan calls for a “pay-what-you-want” fee for riding the rails.

3rd, There has been a buzz about high-speed rail.

4th, Moose's plan also incorporates specialized rail cars that allow for the movement of bicycles, skis, kayaks and outdoor equipment to the outer regions of Canada's National Capital region

@Peter Gabany None of this addresses the issue of what exactly MOOSE does for current ex-urban commuters, most of whom are in areas not served by the rail corridors. Why the reluctance to admit that Moose doesn't give a hoot about existing commuters and is aimed solely at facilitating ex-urban real estate development?
 
Look at his post history. He's got an inflated sense of something..... Thinks Google searches count as insider info. It's like an old guy who just discovered Google and has time on his hands in retirement. Nothing in his posting history demonstrate any professional knowledge in engineering, development, infrastructure, regulatory affairs, etc.
lol...not doing too well in the discussion? It might help if you read the posts. But maybe not...
[...]
MOOSE says it has provided engineering details and offered to pay the estimated $50 million costs to repair and update the Prince of Wales bridge from its own financing arrangements. This work would include the addition of pedestrian and cycling paths/walkways.

MOOSE would compensate the city (at commercial lease rates) for the usage of the city-owned rail tracks. The consortium would apply the funds that would be used to pay these lease rates to recoup its investments in the bridge upgrade.
However, the Bayview Station track issue is a different problem, Potvin says.

“MOOSE is asking the federal regulator (the CTA) to order the city to cover the ‘replacement cost’ of reconnecting the main line track that the city has instructed its contractors to dismantle without authorization from that federal regulator,” he said. “And since the city has also instructed its contractors to build a permanent barrier to interprovincial traffic and trade on the corridor, the next least cost option would be to construct a literal work-around.”

“MOOSE’s civil engineering member firm REMISZ Consulting Engineers has prepared, and MOOSE has submitted to the regulator and the city, one preliminary drawing of a possible least-cost work-around which involves two short underpasses,” he said.

Potvin says the MOOSE solution would not interfere with the construction schedule for the LRT Bayview Station. However, he is hopeful the city will accommodate some modifications to the station design to allow for efficient interconnections between the MOOSE interprovincial 400 km system and the city’s local 20 km LRT operations. [...]
http://ottawaconstructionnews.com/l...ing_wp_cron=1500335008.8752830028533935546875

The answers are there to read...
 
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