Montréal Transit Developments

[p_xavier]

Typically, in a European city, I would question why a project like the REM was being built. Just use lightweight EMU's that run on traditional rail.

But here, we aren't allowed to do that. Without huge red tape and tons of exceptions from Transport Canada. Its a logistical nightmare.

So, I really think that this is the best option, using this LRT style system for regional rail, simply because the trains we would be allowed to use for mainline rail would cause the cost of any elevated transit to balloon in price, and you would be very limited to how the trackage could be weaved between other infrastructure. In fact I dont even think the new Champlain bridge can support heavy rail.

So, this is the best option, in Montreal/Canada.

No it can't, if you mean by heavy rail trains like the Deux-Montagne MR-90. (well technically it can but with no passengers).

 

[robmausser]

No it can't, if you mean by heavy rail trains like the Deux-Montagne MR-90. (well technically it can but with no passengers).

Yes thats what I meant. Because the heavy rail trains have to be FRA/TC Canada compliant. Thanks for confirming that

If this was Paris or London, then, they could have super light 'heavy rail' running EMUs but we can't do that here. So its kind of like LRT or bust with frequent service and trains that can navigate elevated sections, tight turns etc.

I am surprised that the REM is not getting much negativity from transit gurus on here for the fact that a bunch of its route goes down highway medians.

I kept hearing on this forum and other places that transit down highway medians is inaccessible, etc etc.

But with REM, nary a complaint. Its weird.

 

[p_xavier]

Yes thats what I meant. Because the heavy rail trains have to be FRA/TC Canada compliant. Thanks for confirming that

If this was Paris or London, then, they could have super light 'heavy rail' running EMUs but we can't do that here. So its kind of like LRT or bust with frequent service and trains that can navigate elevated sections, tight turns etc.

I am surprised that the REM is not getting much negativity from transit gurus on here for the fact that a bunch of its route goes down highway medians.

I kept hearing on this forum and other places that transit down highway medians is inaccessible, etc etc.

But with REM, nary a complaint. Its weird.

There are many TODs currently beiing built around REM stations, even those in highway medians.

 

[WislaHD]

I am surprised that the REM is not getting much negativity from transit gurus on here for the fact that a bunch of its route goes down highway medians.

I kept hearing on this forum and other places that transit down highway medians is inaccessible, etc etc.

But with REM, nary a complaint. Its weird.

It's less of an issue for commuter rail lines, as those stations tend to rely on park-and-ride and feeder bus routes for ridership to then be transported rapidly downtown/other nodes.

Plus as @p_xavier said, they still are building TOD around quite a few of them.

 

[NoahB]

The CDPQi will get money from each new project developed around the stations, so for them to make the REM go to industrial/blank slate places makes sense cost and profit-wise. Plus, as mentioned above, TOD's are being developed, and developed in an exciting way at that.

The poster child for that currently is the Solar Uniquartier mixed-use project. It sits next to a highway median station but has a bridge connected to the a well thought out path system/open-air mall running through the development.

 

[robmausser]

This may be a bit off topic, but I somewhat disagree because this IS a Toronto Transit thread, so really this entire thread is off topic, but I had a bit of a think about where in Toronto it would be possible (not necessarily a good idea but potentially possible at all) to have an REM style regional rail LRT system. What routes would be possible? Where could such a system and ideology fit in Toronto?

I am not proposing all of these lines nor are the different lines separate routes, several of the route could be combined into one "line", I am only segmenting them as possible route options. Propose using Tram-Trains https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram-train that could both run on disused rail lines as well as typical LRT rail infrastructure. However, I am not proposing that the LRTs would share rail lines with existing freight or GO trains, in those areas they would run elevated much like the REM is doing. Lines would potentially need new bridges, elevated rail, tunnels etc to navigate these routes, much like the REM proposal has shown us is possible.

REM in Toronto Proposal - Google My Maps

A map detailing potential routes for an REM style transit system, using LRT style trains in a regional rail configuration. I am not proposing all of these lines nor are the different lines separate routes, several of the route could be combined into one "line", I am only segmenting them as...

www.google.com

Just a little thought experiment. Click on the above link for the routes and more detailed thoughts in the description of each potential route. But here is a preview

 

[p_xavier]

I think it does a disservice to the project to call it LRT. It's uses Metro cars and really is nothing like any of the LRTs in the Toronto area (which I see as a good thing unfortunately),while the O-Train is more like a metro it's only really half way there. No platform screen doors, lacks of GOA-4 automation etc. plus the wacky use of low floor LRVs on a fully grade separated line.

I was working on studies for LRT back in the mid 2000s in Ottawa and the transportation engineers proposed a light metro, like the REM. The justification for LRT instead of Light Metro was laughable and was pushed by politics and public servants because LRT was seen as cooler. You can read the cringe here : https://app06.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/tc/2009/10-21/Delcan - Rail System Study.pdf Note that afterwards the line was entirely grade separated.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I was working on studies for LRT back in the mid 2000s in Ottawa and the transportation engineers proposed a light metro, like the REM. The justification for LRT instead of Light Metro was laughable and was pushed by politics and public servants because LRT was seen as cooler. You can read the cringe here : https://app06.ottawa.ca/calendar/ottawa/citycouncil/tc/2009/10-21/Delcan - Rail System Study.pdf Note that afterwards the line was entirely grade separated.

This report pisses me off so much. Other than the Hamilton LRT and PC Subway IBC documents, I have never seen decision making so ridiculously justified as this.

"The combination of Light Rail Vehicle with a CBTC system to provide 20,000 pphpd has not yet been proven in revenue service."
...And yet they still went with it. Figures.

 

[Coolstar]

This report pisses me off so much. Other than the Hamilton LRT and PC Subway IBC documents, I have never seen decision making so ridiculously justified as this.

"The combination of Light Rail Vehicle with a CBTC system to provide 20,000 pphpd has not yet been proven in revenue service."
...And yet they still went with it. Figures.

What about Line 5 Eglinton? Remember there is CBTC within the grade-separated corridor.

 

[robmausser]

I think it does a disservice to the project to call it LRT. It's uses Metro cars and really is nothing like any of the LRTs in the Toronto area (which I see as a good thing unfortunately),while the O-Train is more like a metro it's only really half way there. No platform screen doors, lacks of GOA-4 automation etc. plus the wacky use of low floor LRVs on a fully grade separated line.

I realize LRT now is synonymous with low floor streetcars essentially, but I meant it in this context to mean Light Rail, versus mainline heavy rail, which is typical for a regional transit system, even a FLIRT train, which is still leaps and bounds heavier and more restrictive than the comparatively light metro cars of the REM.

REM is being touted as a regional transit system, not a metro, and the use of these vehicles, however they are not like streetcar-style LRTs, are LRTs in the sense like the SkyTrain is, and to use them for the purpose of regional rail is quite unique.

 

[Streety McCarface]

What about Line 5 Eglinton? Remember there is CBTC within the grade-separated corridor.

Don't get me started on the Crosstown...At least the technology is mostly right for Finch, Jane, and Eglinton East.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

REM is being touted as a regional transit system, not a metro, and the use of these vehicles, however they are not like streetcar-style LRTs, are LRTs in the sense like the SkyTrain is, and to use them for the purpose of regional rail is quite unique.

Does anyone call Vancouver Skytrain LRTs? Does anyone call Dubai Metro LRTs? If not, why should REM be labeled as an LRT system when these systems are nearly identical?

In French language media REM is called "le métro léger" - light metro - but I don't know how that became synonymous with LRT in anglophone circles.

I wonder how people will call it once the first line in South Shore opens in 2021 and they start using the system, with platform screen doors, full automation, metro-style rolling stock, full grade separation, and max speeds of 100 km/h in many segments of the system (average speed projected to be 51 km/h throughout).

 

[SFO-YYZ]

REM is being touted as a regional transit system, not a metro, and the use of these vehicles, however they are not like streetcar-style LRTs, are LRTs in the sense like the SkyTrain is, and to use them for the purpose of regional rail is quite unique.

Does anyone call Vancouver Skytrain LRTs? Does anyone call Dubai Metro LRTs? If not, why should REM be labeled as an LRT system when these systems are nearly identical?

In French language media REM is called "le métro léger" - light metro - but I don't know how that became synonymous with LRT in anglophone circles.

I wonder how people will call it once the first line in South Shore opens in 2021 and they start using the system, with platform screen doors, full automation, metro-style rolling stock, full grade separation, and max speeds of 100 km/h in many segments of the system (average speed projected to be 51 km/h throughout).

 

[p_xavier]

Does anyone call Vancouver Skytrain LRTs? Does anyone call Dubai Metro LRTs? If not, why should REM be labeled as an LRT system when these systems are nearly identical?

In French language media REM is called "le métro léger" - light metro - but I don't know how that became synonymous with LRT in anglophone circles.

I wonder how people will call it once the first line in South Shore opens in 2021 and they start using the system, with platform screen doors, full automation, metro-style rolling stock, full grade separation, and max speeds of 100 km/h in many segments of the system (average speed projected to be 51 km/h throughout).

A French PR guy went to the Wikipedia page and metro léger sends to LRT. Occam's razor. (I actually had asked their PR team). The page even shows Edmonton LRT as an example of métro léger… I try to change the page many times but someone reverts it.

Un métro léger, également appelé transit léger sur rail (TLR) ou système léger sur rail (SLR) (dérivée du terme anglais : light rail ou light rail transit, LRT), est une forme de transport en commun urbain ferroviaire offrant généralement une capacité et une vitesse inférieures à celles d'un train ou d'un métro, mais supérieures à celles des systèmes traditionnels de tramway.

 

[robmausser]

Does anyone call Vancouver Skytrain LRTs? Does anyone call Dubai Metro LRTs? If not, why should REM be labeled as an LRT system when these systems are nearly identical?

In French language media REM is called "le métro léger" - light metro - but I don't know how that became synonymous with LRT in anglophone circles.

I wonder how people will call it once the first line in South Shore opens in 2021 and they start using the system, with platform screen doors, full automation, metro-style rolling stock, full grade separation, and max speeds of 100 km/h in many segments of the system (average speed projected to be 51 km/h throughout).

"SkyTrain is a light rapid transit system in the Metro Vancouver Regional District, serving Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, and surrounding municipalities."

The thing is, until the 2000's, LRT was a term used for all kinds of light rail transit. Which from an engineering perspective meant anything that didn't run on a heavy rail network.

The Dubai Metro and the Skytrain are not heavy rail systems.

However, somewhere along the line, LRT became synonymous with these new low floor accessible streetcar type vehicles like the Flexity Freedom. That was a PR stunt by the manufacturers, and media using this term for a specific type of light rail transit.

So now we use the term Light Metro, but really, a light metro is a form of Light Rail Tranist. Its transit, that runs on a light rail system, versus heavy rail.