Montréal Transit Developments

[SFO-YYZ]

I know this is anyone's guess, but what do you guys think are the actual chances that this will get built (whether it's 2017 or 2018 or 2019)? Or is this another elusive Smart Track-like proposal with lots of fanfare but no real chance of reality? I know CDPQ has already committed $3 billion of the required $5.5 billion (a drop in the bucket for them given their $250 billion assets under management, only second after CPP), but what about land appropriation, station placements (and the resulting public consultations...), exact route selection, etc.? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I fee like most news reports on this topic have only scratched the surface.

 

[skahhigh]

I know this is anyone's guess, but what do you guys think are the actual chances that this will get built (whether it's 2017 or 2018 or 2019)? Or is this another elusive Smart Track-like proposal with lots of fanfare but no real chance of reality? I know CDPQ has already committed $3 billion of the required $5.5 billion (a drop in the bucket for them given their $250 billion assets under management, only second after CPP), but what about land appropriation, station placements (and the resulting public consultations...), exact route selection, etc.? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I fee like most news reports on this topic have only scratched the surface.

Spring 2017. The Caisse has already been working on this project since January 2015.

This model of investment is new, and the Caisse wants to export it to other places (according to Caisse VP Macky Tall, they're discussing with some U.S. cities already). Like I said earlier, a lot of people in the public transit scene are watching to see how well the Caisse does with this project. They'll make sure everything runs on time, which is why they're still advancing a late 2020/early 2021 opening date.

They're not rookies, they wouldn't avance that completion date if they thought it was impossible, they also admit it's ambitious... I have confidence in them.

 

[nfitz]

Is grade-separated, partly at grade, underground and elevated rail considered light rail? Keep in mind the frequencies will vary between 3-12 minutes from 5AM to 1AM, which is similar to our Metro Blue line. The REM will actually open and close at the same time as the Metro system.

The key factor would be the length of the trains. If they are only one or 2 cars, then I suppose it could be called light rail. But if it's a 150-metre long train every 3 minutes then it's hardly a light service.

Though an infrequent service 12-minutes wouldn't be acceptable for a subway service.

Like I said many times, it'll be automated.

So will be Mount Dennis to Laird - not sure what's so special about that. Not unusual.

I know this is anyone's guess, but what do you guys think are the actual chances that this will get built (whether it's 2017 or 2018 or 2019)?

It's Quebec ... eventually - maybe. On budget and on schedule. Hardly likely given how incompetent the civil service is, and how corrupt the construction industry is.

 

[transitguy]

Excellent news for Montréal, reusing existing corridors, unlike Toronto, who likes to tear down a perfectly usable rail line.

 

[nfitz]

Excellent news for Montréal, reusing existing corridors, unlike Toronto, who likes to tear down a perfectly usable rail line.

Toronto has used more rail corridors than Montreal - who managed to bulldoze the rail corridor east out of downtown, and the straight one to the west, forcing trains to the east to head northwest through the tunnel, and trains to the west, to weave all the way around downtown.

What's with all this grass is always greener stuff in a city that has been stagnating now for almost 40 years? The do some stuff better (signage) and some stuff worse (accessibility, and their half-baked fare card) - but it's hardly all coming up roses over there.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Every time I see this title I think of Subway sandwich franchises.

 

[nfitz]

Every time I see this title I think of Subway sandwich franchises.

It's all about the 6" versus the 8".

 

[skahhigh]

Toronto has used more rail corridors than Montreal - who managed to bulldoze the rail corridor east out of downtown, and the straight one to the west, forcing trains to the east to head northwest through the tunnel, and trains to the west, to weave all the way around downtown.

What's with all this grass is always greener stuff in a city that has been stagnating now for almost 40 years? The do some stuff better (signage) and some stuff worse (accessibility, and their half-baked fare card) - but it's hardly all coming up roses over there.

Dude you honestly sound jealous. Oh no, Montreal is doing something better than Toronto, better start reminding people how they've been doing badly in the past 40 years...

Be happy for Montreal, we haven't gotten this much transit investment for years. Can't wait for spring 2017 to hear what you have to say when construction starts...

 

[nfitz]

Dude you honestly sound jealous. Oh no, Montreal is doing something better than Toronto, better start reminding people how they've been doing badly in the past 40 years...

Jealous of what? I don't even believe this will happen on-time and budget, until the shovels hit the ground, after all the previous "announcements".

I'm sure something will be built, given there's federal money on the table that shouldn't be left there. But all 4 branches?

If I sound bitter, it's because I grew up in Montreal and I'm frustrated that it's been cocked up so badly since Drapeau left. The same way I'm frustrated that things have been cocked up so badly since Davis left.

Be happy for Montreal, we haven't gotten this much transit investment for years. Can't wait for spring 2017 to hear what you have to say when construction starts...

I'll be saying, well it took 56 years, but they are finally going to build Line 3 and incorporate part of the 1927 extension plan!

I'm scratching my head why I'd be jealous even if this was built. It's only one (significant) project; and there's only 3 or 4 other AMT Grand Projets floating around. The equivalent of the Grand Projets is the Big Move which lists 62 projects - more if you include the ones in the post-25 year category like the RER connection to Square One, and other projects that have arisen since then.

It's nice to see AMT slowly making progress - but of the 3 closed rail lines I used back when I was growing up in Montreal, only the St-Hilare service has been restored, and part of the Trois-Rivières service - but there's still no sign of extending trains east of Repentigny, or back to Sherbrooke. Or of the Orange line extension to Bois-Franc (or the one station north of there I can never remember), or the Blue Line extension to Montreal-West and Lasalle - which were shown on the Metro maps as if they were under construction over 30 years ago (and the less said about the Pie-IX Line 7 the better). And then all those later yellow line proposals ...

 

[APTA-2048]

Dude you honestly sound jealous. Oh no, Montreal is doing something better than Toronto, better start reminding people how they've been doing badly in the past 40 years...

Be happy for Montreal, we haven't gotten this much transit investment for years. Can't wait for spring 2017 to hear what you have to say when construction starts...

I dunno, he sounds like every Montrealer I know who follows transit and infrastructure closely. Essentially: I'll believe it when I see it.

And besides, for someone who has lived in Toronto and Montreal, can you blame him for being so cynical? So many plans that go nowhere between the two cities.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

I dunno, he sounds like every Montrealer I know who follows transit and infrastructure closely. Essentially: I'll believe it when I see it.

And besides, for someone who has lived in Toronto and Montreal, can you blame him for being so cynical? So many plans that go nowhere between the two cities.

Agreed. Both cities really have a lot to be desired for all their proposals and promises. See it, believe it. Simple as that.

 

[aquateam]

Dude you honestly sound jealous. Oh no, Montreal is doing something better than Toronto, better start reminding people how they've been doing badly in the past 40 years...

Be happy for Montreal, we haven't gotten this much transit investment for years. Can't wait for spring 2017 to hear what you have to say when construction starts...

In my experience, everyone who says bitter, negative things about Montreal is from Montreal. Torontonians rave on about how fun Montreal is and how great the food/metro/culture is there, a kind of grass-is-greener thing. If my posts about Montreal have gotten negative recently, it's because I've moved here.

 

[SFO-YYZ]

In my experience, everyone who says bitter, negative things about Montreal is from Montreal. Torontonians rave on about how fun Montreal is and how great the food/metro/culture is there, a kind of grass-is-greener thing. If my posts about Montreal have gotten negative recently, it's because I've moved here.

Aquateam - out of curiosity, what do you find are some of the biggest differences between Mtl and TO, in terms of transit, city life etc. (besides clear language differences)? I ask because my U.S. based parent company is about to open an office in downtown Montreal and they'd like people to consider transferring there...

 

[44 North]

If my posts about Montreal have gotten negative recently, it's because I've moved here.

haha, well negative or not, any off-the-cuff comparisons are still appreciated. It's easy to get caught in the 'Toronto is the centre of the universe so let's ignore every other city' mindset.

What I personally like about this proposal is that it seems to be the real deal in terms of affordable subway-building. A ~65km line for $5.5bn?!? That's how to really build subways IMO. None of this $600M/km tunneling through waterlogged till under unpopulated fields and highways. Or relying on slower in-median tram-style LRT like many cities have come to do when faced with the high cost of subway/metro building. People often quote other cities' subway length to put ours to shame, but also ignore that many cities try to build their metro systems affordably (e.g by utilizing existing infrastructure, using open-air sections in place of deep bore tunneling, making sacrifices like avoiding populated areas in order save $Billions, etc).

This is one reason I like to praise cities that opt for 'light metro' technology like Vancouver (with Skytrain) or London (with Docklands Light Railway). They're continually expanding their subway/metro systems (albeit using light-ish technology/infrastructure). I kinda hope that Mtl doesn't use Bombardier's ART/MK-III, and instead goes for another manufacturer's narrower 'light metro' subway rolling stock. Y'know, just to show that such systems don't have to be unique/proprietary, or a means of propping-up Made in Canada technology.

 

[nfitz]

What I personally like about this proposal is that it seems to be the real deal in terms of affordable subway-building. A ~65km line for $5.5bn?!? That's how to really build subways IMO. None of this $600M/km tunneling through waterlogged till under unpopulated fields and highways.

Sure, and Toronto could achieve something similar, perhaps for even less, if GO Transit was to give away 2 of the GO lines for LRT or GO-ALRT-like service.

About 6 km of the 65-km route is underground. And they assume they get the existing tunnel for free, and get rid of the current AMT usage. Yes, they still have to build new underground platforms at McGill and Vincent d'Indy (or whatever they renamed that Metro station too, that is escaping me right now) - but they've been talking about that for over 50 years (though how do you do that, without meeting the newer requirements in the building code for emergency exits - which I thought was causing issues with some of the proposed Yellow-line work).

Other than that you have existing track (De Montagnes) there already, or you are using abandoned right-of-ways (Doney) or fallow/empty land when you get out to St. Anne de Bellevue. As far as I can tell, the 4th branch to Trudeau is new.

Also note that the proposal requires 2 lanes of a new approx. 6-km bridge across the St. Lawrence River. That's worth $billions right there, but it assumes that it's simply handed over for no cost (despite that the Caisse wants to make money on this scheme).

Or relying on slower in-median tram-style LRT like many cities have come to do when faced with the high cost of subway/metro building ....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what they are proposing as part of this proposal through Brossard? Though I guess we are talking in the median of an Autoroute here!