Montréal Transit Developments

[ARG1]

July 29

Had my first ride on the line and not as fast I Thought it would be.
I clase his as an elect train or a comuter rail based on the distance between stops. Just 20 minute from end to end with inbound being longer.
Nice view of VIA yard with 2 of the new fleet in it

Apparently the line is running much slower today than it was yesterday during the media tours. Optimism suggests that they were taking it slow... just in case.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

REM isn't really comparable to GO though. GO is more comparable to EXO - though I can't comment, as I don't know what the timeframe is for EXO to achieve frequent service.

REM is more equivalent to the Ontario Line; or a low-capacity legacy Toronto or Montreal subway/metro.

There's a lot more rapid-transit projects underway currently in Toronto than Montreal. Twelve with shovels in the ground by my count; 14 if you include the Line 4 extension and the Line 5 extension from Renforth to Pearson that haven't started. As far as I know, there's only 2 underway in Montreal with shovels in the ground. REM and the Blue Line extension.

REM is more like BART or the Washington Metro - a hybrid metro/commuter rail system. If the GO-ALRT system had been built it would have been very similar to what Montreal is getting now.

 

[p_xavier]

The reason the REM exists is because of how more cost efficient it is to operate compared to a suburban train and why the Deux-Montagnes line was ripped off and replaced. QC governments hate investing in transit and I'm surprised the ARTM still exists. Montreal will never get a GO RER style system due to the ownership of the CN and CP, would not even be surprised to see a closure of the Mascouche line,.

 

[MovingBlock]

Montreal will never get a GO RER style system due to the ownership of the CN and CP, would not even be surprised to see a closure of the Mascouche line,.

The heavy rail lines around MTL aren’t suited for high-frequency service. There aren’t any fixed rail bridges across the St Lawrence’s, so it would not be able to serve the south shore frequently.

 

[duty free]

uh... no

Don't get me wrong, the REM is an INCREDIBLE project, and its amazing that Montreal has a new line to be proud of. That being said, I can't stress the fact its only great by the standards of the low bar that North America has set for itself. When we actually consider its impacts to the regional network as a whole, it can't be overstated just how damaging the closure of the DM line, and how assuming ideal outcomes, its a downgrade over the previous mode. If Montreal was a city in any european or east asian country, Montreal would've gotten some RER-like treatment, with significant double tracking work, improved stations with level boarding, and improvements and electrification work to SJ and Mascouche Line trains (plus improved signalling for tighter headways in the tunnel). And, it would've left the Mont Royal Tunnel open so that VIA HFR could through run through Gare Centrale, rather than having to back out, or serve some station in the outskirts of the city like Canora (which is what will likely happen now). What the REM represents is a moderate attempt at making a more budgeted regional railway network by reusing as much existing infrastructure and corridors as possible to make a perfectly great service assuming an isolated context.

In fact, let's compare the two projects shall we, with the details we have today, shall we?

Frequency: The Montreal REM can run at a maximum frequency of every 90s. However outside of the core section, much of the system isn't going to look like this; the system will have many different branches, and those branches will have reduced headways. Off peak, the Brossard branch is planned to have 5-7.5m headways, the DM branch will also have 7.5m headways, and the airport and west island branches will have 15m headways. Granted, outside of the airport branch which is constrained by the single track tunnel, the limit could be expanded to a max headways of 3.33 between the DM and and West Island branches (assuming the airport gets 4tph), with brossard getting a full 90s headways, however it might be a while before they get that many trains, and even then running so many trains that close together could be a massive operational headache.

Meanwhile with GO: DB want to implement ETCS Level 2 on the entire network (at least the parts owned by GO), which means on the core electrified sections we can see up to 5m headways PER LINE. What we also know is that this is part of DB's strategy of better utilizing the fleet, run much shorter consists at much higher headways in order to generate more demand (due to higher frequencies) and allow for higher acceleration from the electric locos due to the smaller trains. So frequency wise, whilst the REM is better, its only barely better.

Next, Speed. I'm sorry but outside of maybe core sections with a ton of stops, the REM isn't beating GO in terms of speed. The only real metric that might swing things in the REM's favour is maybe the fact that GO will have longer dwell times at stations, and maybe slower acceleration during the elec loco days, but it won't be a significant difference overall.

Capacity, again this is a complete wipeout. The way GO is designed, long term it can accommodate 12 car bilevel EMUs possibly running at 5 minute headways on all lines (this is before we consider quad track corridors). When compared to the REM, GO can basically be considered to have infinite capacity.

Rider comfort: I'm sorry but longitudinal seating with hard plastic seats isn't going to beat what GO has, not to mention GO having things like onboard washrooms.

Stations: This is the one area where REM has the distinct advantage, with all of the stations being fully enclosed and weather protected, especially with Platform Screen Doors.



Here's the thing: The Light Metro technology that the REM is using is great at granting flexible trains that can take tighter curves and allow for more flexible operations, such as running on concrete viaducts, nimbly moving off of highway ROWs, and building smaller and cheaper tunnels. This makes sense for the REM because its not just a rebuild of the DM line, its also 3 brand new lines running on their own ROW that could not be replicated by mainline heavy rail without a lot of fudging. This doesn't apply when we're just talking about upgrading existing rail lines. By all means, converting GO RER to a massive REM network is something that will result in a lot more money being spent, for something that will in almost every case be inferior.

thanks for the detailed breakdown of GO Expansion.

if it does actually scale to 5 minute headways per line then I would have to rescind my original comment. everything i've heard and read suggests it would be only every 15 minutes at peak. i guess we'll see in 10, 20 or 30 years however long it actually takes to implement. if it eventually becomes a service similar to Paris' RER A then that would be ideal, but put me in the category of i'll believe it when i see it.

 

[nfitz]

The heavy rail lines around MTL aren’t suited for high-frequency service. There aren’t any fixed rail bridges across the St Lawrence’s, so it would not be able to serve the south shore frequently.

Crossing the St. Lawrence is out (without a massive spend that won't happen). But there's options using the back river bridges. Especially if you run into Parc station or Côte-de-Liesse station (or Central if VIA/HFR really does get it's own tunnel - which I think is probably a pipe-dream).

I think even Dorion (or at least Ste-Anne) is an option, as there certainly looks to be space for additional tracks. Maybe even along the St. Laurent sub into Pointe-Aux-Trembles - could the run into Viau or something nearby?

And there's south-shore options along a myriad of routes, if they can run from the REM rather than into Central. Is there still a way to use the Sorel sub into metro Longueil?

.... everything i've heard and read suggests it would be only every 15 minutes at peak.

15 minutes is all-stations off-peak. Before Covid, Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West were already seeing a bit better than 15-minutes peak - though the extra ones were often express. And that's before they started the expansion work (which will restrict frequencies for the next few years).

 

[Mind_the_gap]

This 360-degree Brossard-Gare Centrale video needs more love (not mine):

Another look at the faregates at Du Quartier:

Source

And the lines at Gare Centrale yesterday:

Source

 

[nfitz]

Wow - the lines are massive. But the media reported they only had 20,000 riders yesterday!

What's the peak-hour per direction load?

 

[ARG1]

thanks for the detailed breakdown of GO Expansion.

if it does actually scale to 5 minute headways per line then I would have to rescind my original comment. everything i've heard and read suggests it would be only every 15 minutes at peak. i guess we'll see in 10, 20 or 30 years however long it actually takes to implement. if it eventually becomes a service similar to Paris' RER A then that would be ideal, but put me in the category of i'll believe it when i see it.

I'd suggest you read what Metrolinx is saying more carefully. Their choice of words thus far has been "MINIMUM every 15 minutes OFF PEAK", or in other words, 15m is their low-ball estimate of what people should expect all day, as a baseline. In terms of what they're actually aiming for, its gotten more ambitious after DB was brought on to help out.

 

[ARG1]

Wow - the lines are massive. But the media reported they only had 20,000 riders yesterday!

What's the peak-hour per direction load?

That's not what was officially reported. Maybe that's the number some media outlets (I'm assuming its LaPresse who absolutely despise the REM) forwarded out of context, but its actually 20,000 riders by 12:30-1pm, so 3-4 hours:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1685331932995780608

By the end of the day they had over 60000 riders:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1685427295283027968

Some things to keep in mind: For some god forsaken reason, the REM decided to run trains every 7.5 minutes yesterday, so the capacity was very constrained. Second, yesteday's operation ran on the model of expecting 30k daily riders. In essence, they had double the riders they thought they would have.

 

[Mind_the_gap]

^ La Presse…

Source

 

[SashaLemon]

For some god forsaken reason, the REM decided to run trains every 7.5 minutes yesterday, so the capacity was very constrained.

Doesn't that have something to do with not being able to turn around quickly at Gare Centrale, since when all is said and done trains will just through run?

 

[nfitz]

Doesn't that have something to do with not being able to turn around quickly at Gare Centrale, since when all is said and done trains will just through run?

Perhaps. With only one downtown station, you may well have similar issues to what you see for the GO trains at Union. Once McGill is open (and the Blue line interchange further north), that will mitigate the peak hour somewhat.

That doesn't seem as bad; what's the frequency this weekend? I know ultimate is every 90 seconds, but what do they plan at start-up.

 

[APTA-2048]

I'd suggest you read what Metrolinx is saying more carefully. Their choice of words thus far has been "MINIMUM every 15 minutes OFF PEAK", or in other words, 15m is their low-ball estimate of what people should expect all day, as a baseline. In terms of what they're actually aiming for, its gotten more ambitious after DB was brought on to help out.

Not to mention, the Lakeshore East Line was already capable of every 15 mins off peak (I really wish they would bring that back) without any of the coming RER/Expansion work.

 

[rdaner]

Great video! What really stood out for me is the immense amount of developable land to the south of downtown along this new line! Massive! Lol