Montréal Transit Developments

[waterloowarrior]

that cost estimate is ridiculous... let's say the 407 corridor was 1 KM wide and 150 KM long (it's smaller than that)... that would make it 150 square kilometres in area, or 37065.8072 acres

104,000,000,000 dollars / 37065.8072 acres = 2,805,820.45 dollars per acre

 

[doady]

Health care is a different animal -- there is no alternative. With transit, I have an alternative ... my car. That's why they won't declare transit an essential service.

That 10 billion dollars would go a long way to building more hospitals, hiring more doctors and nurses, buying more MRI machines to reduce wait times, etc. ... instead of wasting it on suburban streetcars to fulfill a Miller/Giambrone fetish. OHIP could re-list a lot of services they de-listed.

If transit is not an essential service, then health care isn't either. Most people can afford to pay for health care, so why should the few that can't take money from the majority?

In fact, in the US only 15% of population are uninsured, compared with the 30% of people in Scarborough and North York who take transit to work. So really transit is more essential than universal health care.

 

[doady]

Stating that we cannot cost-effectively improve transit in the suburbs to a level that is competitive with the automobile is not hypocrisy.

It is hypocrisy if the only evidence you use to back this statement up is the travel time of a regular bus is too long.

I could do what what you did and say transit downtown should be trashed because the Queen streetcar is very slow.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

that cost estimate is ridiculous... let's say the 407 corridor was 1 KM wide and 150 KM long (it's smaller than that)... that would make it 150 square kilometres in area, or 37065.8072 acres

104,000,000,000 dollars / 37065.8072 acres = 2,805,820.45 dollars per acre

Yeah, but who owned the land before the province bought it? MPPs' families? Let's get a few conspiracy theories going and maybe they'll find out the true number (which is not $104B...that is ridiculous).

 

[LowerBay]

What that 100 billion figure shows is how unsustainable driving is. could we afford another highway like that? For that kind of cash, Metrolinx could have completely finished its plans and launched a second era. Let's hope we don't make that kind of a mistake again.

Driving is sustainable -- it's population growth in the GTA that isn't. From an operations/captial expense point-of-view, the 407 is more sustainable than transit -- it requires no operating subsidy, and if the gov't hadn't foolishly leased it out, the tolls would have fully covered its construction costs in 35 years.

 

[LowerBay]

If transit is not an essential service, then health care isn't either. Most people can afford to pay for health care, so why should the few that can't take money from the majority?

In fact, in the US only 15% of population are uninsured, compared with the 30% of people in Scarborough and North York who take transit to work. So really transit is more essential than universal health care.

Do you have any idea how much surgery costs?

 

[LowerBay]

It is hypocrisy if the only evidence you use to back this statement up is the travel time of a regular bus is too long.

I could do what what you did and say transit downtown should be trashed because the Queen streetcar is very slow.

The Queen Streetcar should be trashed -- if it moves any slower, it'll be backing up. Aunt Jemima's thick maple syrup runs faster than the 501.

 

[LowerBay]

that cost estimate is ridiculous... let's say the 407 corridor was 1 KM wide and 150 KM long (it's smaller than that)... that would make it 150 square kilometres in area, or 37065.8072 acres

104,000,000,000 dollars / 37065.8072 acres = 2,805,820.45 dollars per acre

At first, I didn't believe it either -- maybe they meant 100 million?

 

[doady]

Do you have any idea how much surgery costs?

I have been in surgery several times and never had to pay a cent.

Yet, I have to pay whenever I get on the bus. And declaring it as an essenital service would not make public transit free. Public transit is much more cost-effective than universal health care.

Even your claim suburban transit cannot be cost-effective doesn't make sense. After all, the 19 Hurontario is Mississauga has the highest cost-recovery of all surface transit routes in the the GTA, with a weekday recovery ratio of 115% in 2004. Compare that with the cost-recovery of the streetcars, which are only around 50-60%.

What is the cost-recovery ratio of the the 401?

 

[kEiThZ]

At first, I didn't believe it either -- maybe they meant 100 million?

That's probably more believable. I would have believed 100 billion if it was being built through dense urban areas the whole way. But back when the 407 was being built it was all in farmland.

 

[afransen]

Apparently the $104 billion is 1998 dollars, which means it's closer to $130 billion in today's dollars. That is indeed criminal. $130 billion would have been better used blanketing the GTA in subway.

EDIT: I checked the Ontario Hansard (the source of that figure), and it was mentioned to be billion with a 'b' several times. I'm not sure how that could be--that would represent a significant percentage of tax dollars paid by Ontarians since the formation of the province.

EDIT: At an 8% cost of capital, that investment costs $80 per trip taken on the 407--over and above operating and maintenance costs.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

is that figure just for the land? with construction costs, what's the total?


how much did they sell the 407 for again?

 

[LowerBay]

So it really is $100 billion? ... Holy Mother of God! And I thought Wikipedia was just garbage, as usual.

I had to stop using the 407 -- the tolls are totally ridiculous now, but I'll say this, nothing beats that road wrt speed and convenience. Apparently the province retained the option to build a subway or some type of rail system in the ROW -- why isn't that in Metrolinx's plans?

 

[kEiThZ]

^ There is a 407 busway in Metrolinx's plan. See the appropriate thread in this forum.

 

[kettal]

So it really is $100 billion? ... Holy Mother of God! And I thought Wikipedia was just garbage, as usual.

So, is highways still the more sustainable option?