Montréal Transit Developments

[ARG1]

I fixed the link. It hasn't been taken down

Ok, anyway reading through this, nobody is suggesting that Montreal has somehow found the golden goose for transit build and design. It is painfully obvious that Montreal's "transit construction golden age" is currently riding on the shoulders of the Caisse. One look at anything in Montreal that doesn't involve the REM makes this painfully obvious. Exo is currently in its worst state it has ever been, the Traditional Metro hasn't seen any extensions since 2007, and as we see, the Blue Line is currently suffering through SSE-itis. In terms of projects that are actually under construction, I think there's the PIE-IX BRT? but even then I'm not even sure the shovels have hit the dirt for that project. Like always, its just proposals proposals and more proposals. For this reason, despite my constant praise for what Montreal is currently doing, I struggle to claim that Montreal is universally going in a better direction in terms of transit, when here in Toronto we are building tons of BRT, Subways, and most importantly a TON of regional rail, and are in the process of turning GO into one of the greatest regional rail systems on the continent.

THAT BEING SAID, the reason why me and many others constantly bring up Montreal is because there are a few things they do right. Love or hate the Caisse's involvement, the REM is an absolutely game changer, and if we're comparing the local rapid transit we're building in Toronto vs what Montreal is building, Montreal is the clear winner. While we spent the decade debating and building on street light rail, Montreal in a timeframe of 7 years has managed to design, approve, and build a 67km fully grade separated metro - becoming the largest metro system in Canada, and they're approving and planning even more REM projects. Granted, it is worth noting that REM A is mostly just a replacement for an important EXO line, and can also be seen as just a cheaper and faster approach to accomplishing what GO Expansion is trying to do - and resulted in the demolition of the only electrified commuter/regional rail line in the country, but the point is in general they're following the Vancouver model of transit design, and while we'll see the results of how it ends up working out, its on paper league's better over the LRT mania that we have had in Toronto for the past 15 years.

 

[nfitz]

Gotta say though that I haven't even read it yet, but the fact it was taken down already does wonders to the point you're trying to make

Hasn't been taken down - perhaps your Internet is being problematic.

Point seems valid. Outside one, or perhaps 2, projects, there's been little progress on Transit in Montreal for years - with no new Metro stations under construction in Montreal since the 1980s. I guess there's the restoration of the Montreal North commuter service, and some other small commuter train gains.

 

[ARG1]

Hasn't been taken down - perhaps your Internet is being problematic.

Point seems valid. Outside one, or perhaps 2, projects, there's been little progress on Transit in Montreal for years - with no new Metro stations under construction in Montreal since the 1980s. I guess there's the restoration of the Montreal North commuter service, and some other small commuter train gains.

So the reason I thought it was down was since the link was broken, I tried to extract the link from inspect element, and I must've copied the link incorrectly since it (Actually I just realized I accidentally left the " at the end of the link when I extracted it from the html, whoops). Furthermore when I googled the article name, only the MSN mirror popped up, so I just assumed that the article was down. My apologies.

 

[asher__jo]

Ok, anyway reading through this, nobody is suggesting that Montreal has somehow found the golden goose for transit build and design. It is painfully obvious that Montreal's "transit construction golden age" is currently riding on the shoulders of the Caisse. One look at anything in Montreal that doesn't involve the REM makes this painfully obvious. Exo is currently in its worst state it has ever been, the Traditional Metro hasn't seen any extensions since 2007, and as we see, the Blue Line is currently suffering through SSE-itis. In terms of projects that are actually under construction, I think there's the PIE-IX BRT? but even then I'm not even sure the shovels have hit the dirt for that project. Like always, its just proposals proposals and more proposals. For this reason, despite my constant praise for what Montreal is currently doing, I struggle to claim that Montreal is universally going in a better direction in terms of transit, when here in Toronto we are building tons of BRT, Subways, and most importantly a TON of regional rail, and are in the process of turning GO into one of the greatest regional rail systems on the continent.

THAT BEING SAID, the reason why me and many others constantly bring up Montreal is because there are a few things they do right. Love or hate the Caisse's involvement, the REM is an absolutely game changer, and if we're comparing the local rapid transit we're building in Toronto vs what Montreal is building, Montreal is the clear winner. While we spent the decade debating and building on street light rail, Montreal in a timeframe of 7 years has managed to design, approve, and build a 67km fully grade separated metro - becoming the largest metro system in Canada, and they're approving and planning even more REM projects. Granted, it is worth noting that REM A is mostly just a replacement for an important EXO line, and can also be seen as just a cheaper and faster approach to accomplishing what GO Expansion is trying to do - and resulted in the demolition of the only electrified commuter/regional rail line in the country, but the point is in general they're following the Vancouver model of transit design, and while we'll see the results of how it ends up working out, its on paper league's better over the LRT mania that we have had in Toronto for the past 15 years.

I definitely agree that REM is transformative and has many great elements, but that transit planning has essentially been farmed out I think will have long-term consequences (brain drain with the already sad state of ARTM, the financial liability of paying a private consortium since shareholders expect a return, being bound by non-compete clauses to protect REM's ridership revenue...etc).

 

[ARG1]

I definitely agree that REM is transformative and has many great elements, but that transit planning has essentially been farmed out I think will have long-term consequences (brain drain with the already sad state of ARTM, the financial liability of paying a private consortium since shareholders expect a return, being bound by non-compete clauses to protect REM's ridership revenue...etc).

Well don't forget that this isn't really a private consortium, this is a crown corporation and pension fund. There are no "shareholders" so to speak other than the citizens who expect to collect their pension when they retire. This is similar to say the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund that currently has a stake in several international projects such as High Speed 1 in Britain, only here they have far more control in the project.

 

[asher__jo]

Well don't forget that this isn't really a private consortium, this is a crown corporation and pension fund. There are no "shareholders" so to speak other than the citizens who expect to collect their pension when they retire. This is similar to say the Ontario Teacher's Pension Fund that currently has a stake in several international projects such as High Speed 1 in Britain, only here they have far more control in the project.

Regardless of whether it is a public or private corporation, the project is offloading essentially all risk to the CDPQ. The end result becomes very much like how the Canada Line was built, with Translink paying the consortium a fee. I would have far less concerns with the project if it was planned by the organizations that are charged with planning transit, however that has been completely ripped from their hands.

 

[nfitz]

I definitely agree that REM is transformative and has many great elements, but that transit planning has essentially been farmed out I think will have long-term consequences (brain drain with the already sad state of ARTM, the financial liability of paying a private consortium since shareholders expect a return, being bound by non-compete clauses to protect REM's ridership revenue...etc).

Another issue, is that with their bias, they are trying to maximize revenue, and fail to be building a network, when opportunities arise.

If this was a public project, a connection from the station at Trudeau to the ATM station off Dorval circle would have a no-brainer. As would have extending the other new spur to Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Another issue, is that with their bias, they are trying to maximize revenue, and fail to be building a network, when opportunities arise.

If this was a public project, a connection from the station at Trudeau to the ATM station off Dorval circle would have a no-brainer. As would have extending the other new spur to Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue.

The cynical side of me says that it probably wouldn't happen with public ownership. Besides, there probably wouldn't be anything without REM.

 

[felix123]

Ok, anyway reading through this, nobody is suggesting that Montreal has somehow found the golden goose for transit build and design. It is painfully obvious that Montreal's "transit construction golden age" is currently riding on the shoulders of the Caisse. One look at anything in Montreal that doesn't involve the REM makes this painfully obvious. Exo is currently in its worst state it has ever been, the Traditional Metro hasn't seen any extensions since 2007, and as we see, the Blue Line is currently suffering through SSE-itis. In terms of projects that are actually under construction, I think there's the PIE-IX BRT? but even then I'm not even sure the shovels have hit the dirt for that project. Like always, its just proposals proposals and more proposals. For this reason, despite my constant praise for what Montreal is currently doing, I struggle to claim that Montreal is universally going in a better direction in terms of transit, when here in Toronto we are building tons of BRT, Subways, and most importantly a TON of regional rail, and are in the process of turning GO into one of the greatest regional rail systems on the continent.

THAT BEING SAID, the reason why me and many others constantly bring up Montreal is because there are a few things they do right. Love or hate the Caisse's involvement, the REM is an absolutely game changer, and if we're comparing the local rapid transit we're building in Toronto vs what Montreal is building, Montreal is the clear winner. While we spent the decade debating and building on street light rail, Montreal in a timeframe of 7 years has managed to design, approve, and build a 67km fully grade separated metro - becoming the largest metro system in Canada, and they're approving and planning even more REM projects. Granted, it is worth noting that REM A is mostly just a replacement for an important EXO line, and can also be seen as just a cheaper and faster approach to accomplishing what GO Expansion is trying to do - and resulted in the demolition of the only electrified commuter/regional rail line in the country, but the point is in general they're following the Vancouver model of transit design, and while we'll see the results of how it ends up working out, its on paper league's better over the LRT mania that we have had in Toronto for the past 15 years.

This is well-summarized. I agree that no one here has been saying that Montreal is a transit paradise, but this thread exists because there are interesting contrasts between Toronto and its closest counterpart, Montreal.

Metro expansion is eternally logjammed, the city is over-reliant on buses, and as you mentioned, EXO is in a pitiful state, years after the RTM at the time cancelled a project to electrify lines (besides the DM line). Then on top of that, the metro is mostly inaccessible to those with mobility issues, and progress is glacial.

On the other hand, yeah, there are forumers here who are so insecure about the TTC/GO that they'll forget to pick their battles and will try to make the REM sound like a failure, when it is obviously a clear win for the city, and again as you said is head and shoulders above the LRT mediocrity into which we're invested in TO.

On the topic of the article, it raises good points about the ARTM's failures, but I don't know why someone would bring it up in a MTL vs TO transit debate; the article discusses a lack of integration between the different transit agencies, yet despite that one can buy a zoned TRAM pass in Montreal, which allows you to use both EXO and STM on a single fare, or on a monthly pass. For example, the longest distance EXO train commuters in greater Montreal (zone 3) can buy a monthly pass for $125. If they want to add full access to the STM onto that pass, it's an extra $22, so $147/month. Are we not still waiting for GO/TTC fare integration?

https://exo.quebec/Media/Default/pdf/Grille_tarifaire/2206_ARTM_Grille_tarifaire_TC_EN_2021-11-08.pdf

 

[ARG1]

This is well-summarized. I agree that no one here has been saying that Montreal is a transit paradise, but this thread exists because there are interesting contrasts between Toronto and its closest counterpart, Montreal.

Metro expansion is eternally logjammed, the city is over-reliant on buses, and as you mentioned, EXO is in a pitiful state, years after the RTM at the time cancelled a project to electrify lines (besides the DM line). Then on top of that, the metro is mostly inaccessible to those with mobility issues, and progress is glacial.

On the other hand, yeah, there are forumers here who are so insecure about the TTC/GO that they'll forget to pick their battles and will try to make the REM sound like a failure, when it is obviously a clear win for the city, and again as you said is head and shoulders above the LRT mediocrity into which we're invested in TO.

On the topic of the article, it raises good points about the ARTM's failures, but I don't know why someone would bring it up in a MTL vs TO transit debate; the article discusses a lack of integration between the different transit agencies, yet despite that one can buy a zoned TRAM pass in Montreal, which allows you to use both EXO and STM on a single fare, or on a monthly pass. For example, the longest distance EXO train commuters in greater Montreal (zone 3) can buy a monthly pass for $125. If they want to add full access to the STM onto that pass, it's an extra $22, so $147/month. Are we not still waiting for GO/TTC fare integration?

https://exo.quebec/Media/Default/pdf/Grille_tarifaire/2206_ARTM_Grille_tarifaire_TC_EN_2021-11-08.pdf

Exactly. Also on the topic of Fare Integration, last I checked Montreal is far ahead in terms of Fares in general, they have a fare zone plan set up that unifies all the fares in the Greater Montreal Area.

 

[nfitz]

Exactly. Also on the topic of Fare Integration, last I checked Montreal is far ahead in terms of Fares in general, they have a fare zone plan set up that unifies all the fares in the Greater Montreal Area.

They do, thanks to much more support from the provincial government than one gets in Ontario. Nothing new there though, such fares date back to the 1980s - at least for the commuter rail and bus/metro. It also helped that for some time CTCUM ran both the bus/metro and the trains.

 

[lawwt]

Regarding fare integration, purchasing regional fares with PRESTO is significantly easier than with OPUS. When purchasing at a machine, with OPUS you're faced with a myriad of not very clear options. Often theres no regional map so if its your first time, you have a hard time choosing the correct fare. Not great for new comers or if you're an occasional user.

 

[felix123]

Regarding fare integration, purchasing regional fares with PRESTO is significantly easier than with OPUS. When purchasing at a machine, with OPUS you're faced with a myriad of not very clear options. Often theres no regional map so if its your first time, you have a hard time choosing the correct fare. Not great for new comers or if you're an occasional user.

Presto is the better fare card, but the example you gave above is unrelated to fare integration.

 

[officedweller]

There is a benefit to using the same technology, and thats of course simplicity. Less parts, different maintenance etc.
...

This also works out of your favour with the existing rolling stock; the company that built the existing trains knows you have an advantage sticking with their same model, and they of course will price them accordingly.

From Canada Line bidding, Bombardier was not allowed to use efficiencies of scale (wrt the existing SkyTrain vehicle orders) as that would have been an unfair advantage versus other bidders.
It's different for "extensions" such as Broadway and Surrey that will use the same SkyTrain technology.

 

[Xav]

I think there's the PIE-IX BRT? but even then I'm not even sure the shovels have hit the dirt for that project. Like always, its just proposals proposals and more proposals.

It's due to open this fall, save for one important intersection (where they're building the tunnel to link with the blue line extension). They've started work on a 1.5km extension south to Notre-Dame (where it will connect with REM B). The problem with the Pie-IX BRT project is that it was integrated with a much larger infrastructure project... They rebuilt the entire street, and that's what went overbudget and much much behind schedule. The mass transit portion of the work went smoothly actually. Stay tuned for similar BRT projects coming soon, on Parc and Henri-Bourassa.

As for Exo... There's a bit of unfair criticism here... pre-pandemic every line saw ridership increasing (with the obvious exception of the Deux-Montagnes line). They've improved greatly in the last decade, both in terms of frequencies and with the infrastructure. It's not GO though, that's for sure.

The real problem with Exo and the ARTM, and this is what the Gazette article is referencing, is that the government basically abandoned them in favour of the Caisse. ARTM was created in 2017 because there were issues with fare integration in the CMM (the Greater Montreal Area) and because there was a concerted wish for taking capital project planning out of the hands of politicians. The ARTM has been working on a 50 year plan (kinda like Translink) to drive planning in the region. When the PLQ government created the ARTM, they had them work with the Caisse, involving all parties in the discussions and they were trying to create a model where regional needs for transportation could be met with the involvement of private parties like the Caisse. In 2018 when the Legault government came to power, they stopped this collaboration. They stopped inviting ARTM to meetings and they didn't even tell them ahead of time when they announced REM B. The government even decided to take projects already being studied and announced (the LEEO project on the south shore), scrap them and ask the Caisse to study them instead...

I don't know much about Toronto, and I frankly don't think it's really worth comparing because everything is just so different, but I hope I could bring a bit more context and information regarding the situation in Montreal!