MLSE & Bon Jovi to Pursue NFL/Buffalo Bills

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Excuses excuses. If NFL support were as high as people think the stadium would have been full no matter how bad the Bills were. Just like London. Besides, it takes two teams to play football and the Bills played some very good teams here. Ticket prices dropped to a figure more in line the NFL average and still the crowds kept shrinking. If you think tickets would be any cheaper if we had our own team you're fooling yourself.

First, it's not an excuse. Rogers wrongly assumed that Toronto was a BILLS home city whereas there are many Bills fans but also fans from pretty much every other team. So, when they played the Dolphins, the crowd was probably 50/50 (and I use the term "crowd" loosely). Even when I saw Atlanta, probably 30% of the fans were Falcons fans. So, the players were pissed and the Bills fans (like me) who couldn't afford to go were pissed and the Buffalo fans were pissed and...I think just about everyone was, except Ralph Wilson.

It takes 2 teams, yes, but you are wrong about the Bills playing "some very good teams here." I'm too lazy to look it up but I don't know if any of them even had a winning record. The Bears, maybe? Not one was a marquee franchise because everyone knew that if the Bills were playing a single game against, say, the Broncos, and it was here, there would be a major revolt. So Toronto got the B-teams.

Cut the ticket prices by 50%, have the Patriots play the Broncos and rest assured, that stadium is full. No doubt about it.

Which brings us to...

I have long held that their intent was never to prove how deep the market is here nor do I think they blew the marketing.

I think they were trying to show how much they could charge here and get a relatively small, but profitable, NFL crowd to fill Rogers Centre. One of the obvious obstacles to getting an NFL team here is the lack of a stadium that meets the NFL minimum size of 60k. I think the folks at Rogers were trying to show that with inflated prices in a 52k stadium, and with a disproportionate number of private boxes, they could generate better than average (upper end actually) game day revenue in the smaller stadium and then convince the NFL that they could host a team in a smaller venue. Getting into the NFL without having to spend $1B on a new venue would clearly be a big win!

I really think the ticket pricing was a calculated risk that backfired....and by the time they got around to the face saving price reductions, it was too late....the market had already decided it was a too expensive event and I bet a good number of prospective/interested fans were not aware that in the last couple of years of the event the prices had been reduced significantly.

Just look at how much was paid to the Bills......they were receiving 1.5 - 2 times what they would normally earn in Orchard Park per game...from a stadium that is barely half the size of the Ralph.

That's an interesting theory....it almost makes sense. If the risk Rogers took was actually "calculated" they could have lowered prices in subsequent years. They did, but not significantly and there was so much bad publicity about papering the house it didn't matter. So we agree it was way too little way too late. But, as you point out, it was a financial win for the bills, because their $ was guaranteed, and substantial.

To go back up top, did Rogers actually dream that they could get away with those prices for a bona fide Toronto NFL team? I doubt it. And if they did, they were wrong. But my larger point is that there were multiple factors that went into why that stadium was never close to full and few of them really play into an assessment of whether the city could support an NFL team.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

JBJ has said the group will be keeping the team in Buffalo

 

[MisterF]

First, it's not an excuse. Rogers wrongly assumed that Toronto was a BILLS home city whereas there are many Bills fans but also fans from pretty much every other team. So, when they played the Dolphins, the crowd was probably 50/50 (and I use the term "crowd" loosely). Even when I saw Atlanta, probably 30% of the fans were Falcons fans. So, the players were pissed and the Bills fans (like me) who couldn't afford to go were pissed and the Buffalo fans were pissed and...I think just about everyone was, except Ralph Wilson.

I'm not sure why this would matter. If you're a Falcons fan why would you care that it's an away game? If you're not a fan of either team but you just want to see NFL football why does it matter which is the home team?

It takes 2 teams, yes, but you are wrong about the Bills playing "some very good teams here." I'm too lazy to look it up but I don't know if any of them even had a winning record. The Bears, maybe? Not one was a marquee franchise because everyone knew that if the Bills were playing a single game against, say, the Broncos, and it was here, there would be a major revolt. So Toronto got the B-teams.

Nope, the Bills did play some very good teams in Toronto. In fact, we got teams with winning records 4 times out of 6. In 2012 Seattle was 11-5, as were Chicago in 2010 (2nd in the NFC that year) and Miami in 2008. Those are good, if not elite teams any way you look at it. Of course, those teams didn't draw any better than the bad teams.

London has had some bad teams over the years too but that didn't stop them from filling Wembley.

Cut the ticket prices by 50%, have the Patriots play the Broncos and rest assured, that stadium is full. No doubt about it.

Ticket prices were cut significantly. To cut them by another 50% would make them the cheapest tickets in the league. Hardly a sustainable business model. The Broncos were actually worse than the teams we got on more than one occasion. As for the Patriots, if the only way people would show up is to watch the #1 team in the league, that's just a sign that Toronto is full of fairweather football fans. That's not the type of fan base the NFL wants.

 

[Videodrome]

When the Bears played here, over half of the crowd was wearing an Urlacher jersey.

 

[TOareaFan]

When the Bears played here, over half of the crowd was wearing an Urlacher jersey.

Really? I am not sure how many Urlacher jerseys were ever sold but I would surprised if there was ever a time when over 25,373 of them were in the same building at the same time....for any athlete that would be an accomplishment.

 

[GenerationW]

JBJ has said the group will be keeping the team in Buffalo

That's a required condition for bidding, so he had to say that. The question is, who believes him? I wouldn't if I were running the bidding process.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

Really? I am not sure how many Urlacher jerseys were ever sold but I would surprised if there was ever a time when over 25,373 of them were in the same building at the same time....for any athlete that would be an accomplishment.

OT - but Urlacher was regularly in the top 10 of jersey sales each season in the NFL when he played

 

[TOareaFan]

OT - but Urlacher was regularly in the top 10 of jersey sales each season in the NFL when he played

Take your word for that but top 10 in sales across North America probably still does not translate to 25k+ wearing them at one game in Toronto

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not sure why this would matter. If you're a Falcons fan why would you care that it's an away game? If you're not a fan of either team but you just want to see NFL football why does it matter which is the home team?

No, you missed the point there. Rogers thought (or hoped?) that it would be a home crowd for the Bills; that Toronto fans were mostly Bills fans. That translates into sales and a "home" atmosphere. So, that was a miscalculation. For the players (and fans in Buffalo) it was losing home field advantage for one of their 8 home games. So that's why they were pissed. It was really a lose-lose from a Buffalo team/fan perspective.

Obviously if you were a fan of the Falcons (or Dolphins or Bears, or whomever), you couldn't care less. Au contraire, that's kind of the "problem" I was trying to illuminate. It was like an exhibition game atmosphere instead of a home-field atmosphere. (And worse, because of the papering it was a very corporate atmosphere so the die hard Bills fans might have been one of the smallest groups in attendance.)

I forgot about Seattle but the floundering Bills were still a common factor in all those games and I don't think it was any one factor but a combination of the prices, the marketing, the prices etc. that lead to a bad turnout.

Ticket prices were cut significantly. To cut them by another 50% would make them the cheapest tickets in the league. Hardly a sustainable business model. The Broncos were actually worse than the teams we got on more than one occasion. As for the Patriots, if the only way people would show up is to watch the #1 team in the league, that's just a sign that Toronto is full of fairweather football fans. That's not the type of fan base the NFL wants.

The tickets, last I checked, were still around $100 to sit in the 500 level. That's ridiculous and way more than Buffalo and, though I haven't done a survey, well above the league average, I suspect. By the second year everyone knew Rogers was papering the house and the prices were too high so any changes were too little too late.

I don't claim to know precisely what it means for "the NFL in Toronto" but I don't think it's a fair gauge of how fairweather the fans are here for all those reasons. (Comparing it London is also not really fair, because it's an 'exotic' one-off event there.) If Rogers wanted to prove they could make money with a small stadium by upping prices, it didn't work and if they wanted to prove Toronto would pounce on the Bills just like that, it also didn't work.

I suspect Toronto would have little trouble sustaining a team but Rogers just made too many incorrect assumptions for the Bills series to be a reliable indicator and, anyway, I wouldn't want to see the Bills torn away from Buffalo.

 

[MisterF]

No, you missed the point there. Rogers thought (or hoped?) that it would be a home crowd for the Bills; that Toronto fans were mostly Bills fans. That translates into sales and a "home" atmosphere. So, that was a miscalculation. For the players (and fans in Buffalo) it was losing home field advantage for one of their 8 home games. So that's why they were pissed. It was really a lose-lose from a Buffalo team/fan perspective.

Obviously if you were a fan of the Falcons (or Dolphins or Bears, or whomever), you couldn't care less. Au contraire, that's kind of the "problem" I was trying to illuminate. It was like an exhibition game atmosphere instead of a home-field atmosphere. (And worse, because of the papering it was a very corporate atmosphere so the die hard Bills fans might have been one of the smallest groups in attendance.)

I really don't see any way that they could have avoided the exhibition game atmosphere. No matter who was playing and how they set it up there wouldn't have been a home game atmosphere and somebody would have lost a home game in their own stadium. You could make the same criticisms of the international series in London. I guess I'm not seeing the point of criticizing something that's inherent in hosting a regular season game in a new city. It's like saying the problem with the Ford Pinto was that it had four wheels.

The tickets, last I checked, were still around $100 to sit in the 500 level. That's ridiculous and way more than Buffalo and, though I haven't done a survey, well above the league average, I suspect. By the second year everyone knew Rogers was papering the house and the prices were too high so any changes were too little too late.

Tickets for last year's game were as cheap as $48 and most were less than $100. That's perfectly in line with the NFL average of $82.

I don't claim to know precisely what it means for "the NFL in Toronto" but I don't think it's a fair gauge of how fairweather the fans are here for all those reasons. (Comparing it London is also not really fair, because it's an 'exotic' one-off event there.)

I wouldn't call it an exotic one-off. The NFL has been playing in London every year since 2007. There were two games last season and three are scheduled for this fall. The NFL has been busy supporting the game at lower levels across the UK, and it's getting more popular.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I really don't see any way that they could have avoided the exhibition game atmosphere. No matter who was playing and how they set it up there wouldn't have been a home game atmosphere and somebody would have lost a home game in their own stadium. You could make the same criticisms of the international series in London. I guess I'm not seeing the point of criticizing something that's inherent in hosting a regular season game in a new city. It's like saying the problem with the Ford Pinto was that it had four wheels.


Tickets for last year's game were as cheap as $48 and most were less than $100. That's perfectly in line with the NFL average of $82.

We'll have to agree to disagree on everything except how unlikely it is the Bills are coming here any time soon

I know Rogers spin' on the prices was how cheap they are now but the $48 seats were crap; in the top rows, behind the endzones. It was still around $100 to get decent, midfield seats in the 500 level.

Maybe "88% of tickets are less than $150" but that's nothing to be proud of when you're already papering the house and still getting 35K or whatever it was. The Bills have variable pricing this year but even so, their TOP ticket price, for a "Gold" game is $130, dropping to $99 (that's $110 of our dollars) for a bronze. Even if the NFL average is over $80, the average in BUFFALO is below $60; the lowest average in the entire NFL. I could get a a good Bills ticket, include gas and parking and probably STILL be ahead of the Skydome prices and I bet concessions are cheaper there too!

Buffalo isn't Toronto and there other apple/orange factors but, really, it seems crazy to me to suggest that this price gap didn't factor into the attendance (nor the fact they are the team in the NFL that has gone longest since even getting into the playoffs), especially since the narrative was set in year one. If the prices were on par, I imagine that, if nothing else, a lot more Buffalonians would have made the trip. Any way you slice it, it didn't work out as planned.

 

[TOareaFan]

^I hardly think that, either, the NFL or Rogers were interested in selling tickets at prices to match the lowest tickets in the league. What is the point of that exercise? "look we can sell 52k seats in Toronto at the same prices they use in Buffalo to fill 74k"!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

^I hardly think that, either, the NFL or Rogers were interested in selling tickets at prices to match the lowest tickets in the league. What is the point of that exercise? "look we can sell 52k seats in Toronto at the same prices they use in Buffalo to fill 74k"!

A full stadium would have looked better than a 60% filled stadium, with a substantial number of those freebies. Because of the parity and structure of the NFL, they would have been more impressed with a bustling atmosphere than with whatever Rogers' bottom line happened to be.

I'm not saying they had to price them the same as Buffalo but that a happy medium might have yielded enough $ while putting more seats in the stands. That's the entirety of my point. I'll leave it to greater corporate minds to determine what an optimal price point might be but I can't imagine anyone, on this board, working for Rogers or otherwise, thinks they nailed it at Skydome.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

And here we go

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/nfl/bon-jovi-group-exploring-toronto-nfl-stadium-sites-1.2717279

A Buffalo Bills prospective ownership group that includes rocker Jon Bon Jovi has conducted a feasibility study into buying the NFL franchise and building a stadium in Toronto, said a person close to the situation says.

The study identified at least three potential stadium sites, two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga, the person told The Associated Press on Thursday. The person spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity because Bon Jovi and his partners, Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers family, have not publicly revealed details of their plans to purchase the team.

Andy Bergmann, responsible for overseeing the Bon Jovi group's stadium plans, confirmed Thursday in an email to the AP that his company has conducted stadium studies, "but nothing related to any specific site."

"We have undertaken engineering and design studies," wrote Bergmann, co-founder of Toronto-based Wessex Capital Partners, a growth equity investment firm that specializes in architecture, design and engineering services. "All of our work has been about a generic site and whether it was more rural or urban. We are aware of potential sites in the western NY and southern Ontario region, and are in fact meeting with two Buffalo area developers next week.

"No feasibility studies have been undertaken on any site to date."

 

[Solid Snake]

Bon Jovi-led group interested in buying Buffalo Bills eyeing potential Toronto stadium sites: report

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014...yeing-potential-toronto-stadium-sites-report/

The study identified at least three potential stadium sites, two in Toronto, including one on the waterfront, and another in the suburb of Mississauga, the person told The Associated Press on Thursday. The person spoke to The AP on condition of anonymity because Bon Jovi and his partners, Larry Tanenbaum and the Rogers family, have not publicly revealed details of their plans to purchase the team.