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Metrolinx strategy for funding and building Transit City and Viva

The LRT conversion is going to double the capacity of the current SRT.

I just looked at the SRT Information on the TTC page, basically the existing capacity is 3800 pphpd, the current demand is 5000.
The existing trains are 60 m and the new ones at 95. That roughly 1/3 more capacity per train. That just meets today’s current demand.
They would have to increase the number of trains on the system. There is nothing on the press release that indicates that.

Conflicting Information on the website, the TTC state in one of the PDF's that the existing trains are 60m and in another they claim that it's 50m long. Even if the difference is that great, it still doesn’t meet the projection of 10000 pphpd in 2031.
 
A go station at this intersection has been in the plans for a long time

Your right...in fact I think I first heard of it back in the mid/late 80's....yet it has never been built. I have always thought that, aside from more trains...which have also been "coming" since about then, that what this line needs is more stops. 2 or 3 (even though that might marginally increase commute times on the bulk of trains that will make "all stops".....Black Creek/Eglinton.....Liberty Village (serving King St and the Ex Grounds/Ontario Place) and the one at Woodbine Race Track (that is the most marginal one to me but if it is needed to serve the airport and if Woodbine Place becomes an attraction/destination then it makes sense).

With those stops added to the existing stops it would be the GO line with the most "destinations" at its door and, therefore, the one most likely to support viable off peak service.
 
What parts of the "cities" are those? Show me an area of the city that is not covered under Phase 1 or 2 of MoTo, and I'll show you one that's not covered under TC. Nice grammar mistake btw ;).
Phase 2 is not relevant. The coverage for the initial $8-billion is much poorer than Transit City. At least I fix my grammar mistakes when they are pointed out ... and your comparing a post I wrote in 5 seconds to a comprehensive document that I would have thought someone would have proofed?

Yes, have fun cramming onto an LRT at STC that has nearly the same capacity as the current SRT, and then transferring at Kennedy
The primary problem with the existing SRT is a lack of frequency to provide the capacity. Why are you deceiving people by saying the capacity is about the same. The current trains are 51-metres long, and the new LRT trains will be 96 metres long. Given the width is similiar, anyone can see the capacity of each train is almost double. Even with a small increase in frequency from the current service, it will easily be able to handle double the current demand. And there's still a lot of opportunity to increase the frequency.

Great improvement. Scarborough Centre needs a subway.
It is a great improvement - especially with the new underground LRT platform at Kennedy. As you don't seem to understand that the capacity is significantly incraesed, I don't see how you can opine on the need for a subway.

And connects to one of the busiest airports in the world. It also puts a subway at Mississauga's doorstep, with a direct connection to the Mississauga Transitway. Ridership numbers are extremely flexible, change a couple bus routes around, and you can drastically alter ridership projections.
What kind of case is that ... the numbers must be wrong, but if I pull something out of my imagination, it would be necessary?
 
I just looked at the SRT Information on the TTC page, basically the existing capacity is 3800 pphpd, the current demand is 5000.
The existing trains are 60 m and the new ones at 95. That roughly 1/3 more capacity per train. That just meets today’s current demand.
They would have to increase the number of trains on the system. There is nothing on the press release that indicates that.

Conflicting Information on the website, the TTC state in one of the PDF's that the existing trains are 60m and in another they claim that it's 50m long. Even if the difference is that great, it still doesn’t meet the projection of 10000 pphpd in 2031.

This is really not the thread to debate the SRT again, but the headway could easily be cut in half after the rebuild, 10,000 per hour would be readily handled, not that ridership would ever get that high in the first place.
 
The existing trains are 60 m and the new ones at 95.
The current cars are 12.7 metres long. Putting 4 together won't give you 60 metres. Looks like a typo, and they meant 50 metres.

I don't see why there are any questions that the LRT design wouldn't easily carry more than double the current demand.
 
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To back up the argument that a connection to the airport is a low priority, look at the numbers of other cities in North America that do have have airport subway connections. Atlanta International Airport is the busiest in the world. Is serves almost 90 million travellers each year, about three times as many as Pearson. The subway station that serves the airport gets a paltry 11,500 riders per day.

Now Atlanta is hardly a model for good transit planning. Toronto is much more comparable to Chicago. O'Hare gets 64 million travellers per year, twice as many as Pearson. Of those 64 million fliers only 3 million make it to the O'Hare subway station. That is a daily ridership of about 8,200.

New York is a transit mecca, but despite having North America's most extensive subway network the builders of the MTA never connected to either JFK or La Guardia. JFK is served by the AirTrain people mover that connects with the subway. It's daily ridership is about 11,000, for an airport that gets about 50% more traffic each year than Pearson.

Three huge airports, but all of them attract subway ridership numbers that would rank them as some of the least used stations on the TTC.
 
I just looked at the SRT Information on the TTC page, basically the existing capacity is 3800 pphpd, the current demand is 5000.
The existing trains are 60 m and the new ones at 95. That roughly 1/3 more capacity per train. That just meets today’s current demand.
They would have to increase the number of trains on the system. There is nothing on the press release that indicates that.

Conflicting Information on the website, the TTC state in one of the PDF's that the existing trains are 60m and in another they claim that it's 50m long. Even if the difference is that great, it still doesn’t meet the projection of 10000 pphpd in 2031.

The existing trains are actually 51m, and the new trains will be 96m. That is very nearly double the length of the old trains. . The current system is constrained at 3.5 minutes.Well, that is the point. Not only will longer trains be used, the TTC will now be able to purchase enough vehicles to run headways better than the current 3.5 minutes.
LRT can easily handle 10,000pph in a surface ROW, the capacity in a grade seperated ROW can be even higher.
 
This is really not the thread to debate the SRT again, but the headway could easily be cut in half after the rebuild, 10,000 per hour would be readily handled, not that ridership would ever get that high in the first place.

Eglinton is getting ATC in the tunnel portion.

SRT will use the same vehicles and there is a good chance it could also have ATC installed at the same time. It's the same kit as the subway, which is actually cheaper to add than something different since the control center is configured and manned for it.

Theoretical capacity of the rebuilt SRT is about 20,000pphpd, practical capacity probably closer to 17,000pphpd with an appropriate number of vehicles purchased. This is more than enough to accommodate load for the short-term (40 year) future.
 
Phase 2 is not relevant. The coverage for the initial $8-billion is much poorer than Transit City. At least I fix my grammar mistakes when they are pointed out ... and your comparing a post I wrote in 5 seconds to a comprehensive document that I would have thought someone would have proofed?

I fail to see how Phase 2 is not relevant. The money for it has not dissapeared, merely delayed. You're just choosing to ignore it because it makes Transit City look even worse when they're stacked up side by side. Phase 2 also brings the total of the plan to just under $15 billion.

And had someone had pointed out the grammar mistakes, I would have fixed them as well. But I fail to see how accidentally putting "it's" instead of "its" undermines my qualifications as a transit planner. It does not make my arguments any less correct, or any less valid. Had it have been a number typo, putting in $10,000 instead of $100,000, then there would be more of a reason for objection.

The primary problem with the existing SRT is a lack of frequency to provide the capacity. Why are you deceiving people by saying the capacity is about the same. The current trains are 51-metres long, and the new LRT trains will be 96 metres long. Given the width is similiar, anyone can see the capacity of each train is almost double. Even with a small increase in frequency from the current service, it will easily be able to handle double the current demand. And there's still a lot of opportunity to increase the frequency.

Doubling the carrying capacity won't really do much good if you don't widen the platform at STC. From what I have read, I also believe they are not extending the platforms at any of the existing stations, so having doubled trains won't really do much good if you can't fit them in the station. Even the TTC projects ridership to hit 10,000 pphpd by 2031, I'd say that's pretty solid subway ridership numbers, so please don't tell me the demand isn't there, or that it won't be there.

It is a great improvement - especially with the new underground LRT platform at Kennedy. As you don't seem to understand that the capacity is significantly incraesed, I don't see how you can opine on the need for a subway.

Because extending an LRT line into Malvern (which it doesn't even do in Phase 1, did you add that to your "communities left out of TC" list?) is overkill, and an LRT from STC to Kennedy is underkill. Unfortunately, the two don't really balance out. What's so wrong with having a transferless ride from STC to Bloor-Yonge? The SRT revamp and extension is in the same ballpark in terms of dollars as a subway extension to STC.

What kind of case is that ... the numbers must be wrong, but if I pull something out of my imagination, it would be necessary?

No, I'm just saying that the TTC did their projections for an LRT line. Subways generate more riders than LRT lines do.

And I also find it funny that you completely ignored my 'unserved neighbourhoods' rebuttal. With TC, Scarborough gets virtually no new service, aside from an LRT along Sheppard which shouldn't even be there. Downtown gets nothing. East York gets nothing. West Etobicoke gets nothing. The airport gets nothing. Yes, TC has much better coverage than MoTo, especially to key areas. Who needs a DRL right away anyway? It can wait until after the single family homes and strip malls along Sheppard get their LRT.
 
The existing trains are actually 51m, and the new trains will be 96m. That is very nearly double the length of the old trains. . The current system is constrained at 3.5 minutes.Well, that is the point. Not only will longer trains be used, the TTC will now be able to purchase enough vehicles to run headways better than the current 3.5 minutes.

LRT can easily handle 10,000pph in a surface ROW, the capacity in a grade separated ROW can be even higher.

Also, existing trains are 2.5m wide while the new trains will be 2.65m wide.
 
Please just start building this. Build anything! I'm tired of years of talking and planning and counter-planning. Building any new transit is better than talking about how to build transit forever.
 
Aside from some probably optimistic costing for subway on the Eglinton and SRT corridors, the primary difference between your plan and what we're getting is prioritizing the eastern leg of the DRL over Sheppard and Finch.

I'd personally love it if the DRL was given this kind of priority, but is it really worth tearing everything up right now and starting over? You've seen the way this world of transit funding and planning bureaucracy works.

Even in its crippled form, I still see Transit City as a catalyst for the DRL. And with a new Toronto mayor coming on board, there's a really chance for the winning candidate to make the DRL his legacy project.
 

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