Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

[Electrify]

I did a research project on this a few years back. I found that there were so few people using the Bay Mills stop that I had to move to a different stop (Ionview on Eglinton) to complete the assignment. And in both cases, the majority of respondents said they would not mind walking an extra few minutes for a faster service.

The silver lining is that the Viva busway on Highway 7 has a similar stop spacing, and is still pretty quick. So while it may not be as good as it could be, it will still be pretty good and certainly better than what is in place now.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Unless they continue to run the Sheppard East busses as they do today.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Meadowvale to Don Mills is 15 km. At 27 kph, it can be covered in 33 min. At 23 kph, it is 39 min. The difference is 6 min (not 4) one way.

For someone commuting from the east end 2 times a day, the total difference will be 12 min. This is not negligible.

I am going to graft a term usually reserved for the natural environment: cumulative effects. The cumulative disregard for 6 minutes extra time over 2 or 3 different routes. All of a sudden, you're looking at 18 minutes for your entire one-way commute. It's the cumulative effects of adding time on each route, I believe we need to be tougher on shaving minutes.

 

[DKsan]

I did a research project on this a few years back.

You mean a singular year ago.

 

[Electrify]

You mean a singular year ago.

Was in third year when I did it, so 2012-2013. Think I posted it on here as well, if one wants to search for it (though the mods may have been combined into this thread).

 

[jeffreym]

I am going to graft a term usually reserved for the natural environment: cumulative effects. The cumulative disregard for 6 minutes extra time over 2 or 3 different routes. All of a sudden, you're looking at 18 minutes for your entire one-way commute. It's the cumulative effects of adding time on each route, I believe we need to be tougher on shaving minutes.

It's only 6 minutes if you're taking the whole line. What % of people will be doing that?

For others removing the midblock stops will add time. Let's look at a few examples:

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...17107,-79.2924739,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 7 minutes (600m) from just over 2 minutes (190m)

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...@43.7885286,-79.2629378,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 9 minutes (750m) from just over 5 minutes (450m)

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...@43.8007751,-79.2125545,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 4 minutes (350m) from just over 9 minutes (700m)

As Steve Munro speaks about in this article - http://stevemunro.ca/?p=7223 - "This 2011 paper from the Victoria (B.C.) Transport Policy Institute reviews the factors that affect transit’s attractiveness and how these might be applied. Of particular interest is the notion that making a trip more comfortable (less crowded, more convenient) can produce comparable improvement to reductions in travel time.

This is not surprising when one considers that transit riders assign a high penalty value to unpredictable events such as waiting for a bus or transferring between routes, and their perception of a journey is affected by how easily they can board and comfortably ride.

This has important implications for planning since time costs are a dominant factor in transport project evaluation. Conventional evaluation practices tend to ignore qualitative factors, assigning the same time value regardless of travel conditions, and so undervalue service improvements that increase comfort and convenience. Yet, a quality improvement that reduces travel time unit costs by 20% provides benefits equivalent to an operational improvement that increases travel speeds by 20%. [p. 2]"

People don't perceive all portions of their trips equally. If your walk jumps from 4 minutes to 9 minutes, the perceived increase in travel time is going to be much greater than the extra 5 minutes it'll take you to get to the stop. This will be aggravated when you're running late and you see a train pass you by or when weather conditions are poor.

That's not to say that we should have stops 75m apart - there comes a point where there are diminishing returns - but my point is that for plenty of people the impact will be much greater than 6 minutes, to the point that a number will be disincentivized to take transit.

Ultimately it's a balancing act and there's no correct answer, but at the very least we need to acknowledge that there will be people to which cutting out the midblock stops will be a significant downgrade.

 

[Irishmonk]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that walking is good for you and there's nothing wrong with a daily commute that involves some physical activity. An extra 4 minutes of brisk walking is time better spent than sitting in a streetcar for the same period.

 

[aquateam]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that walking is good for you and there's nothing wrong with a daily commute that involves some physical activity. An extra 4 minutes of brisk walking is time better spent than sitting in a streetcar for the same period.

Personally, I prefer walking to waiting for a bus that may never arrive, since it puts an upper bound on my travel time. Even if the bus usually ends up passing me slightly before my destination.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that walking is good for you and there's nothing wrong with a daily commute that involves some physical activity. An extra 4 minutes of brisk walking is time better spent than sitting in a streetcar for the same period.

Many people who sit on their behinds in an office for 6-8 hours run for seats on the subway. I doubt those people would embrace some physical activity in their daily commute.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that walking is good for you and there's nothing wrong with a daily commute that involves some physical activity. An extra 4 minutes of brisk walking is time better spent than sitting in a streetcar for the same period.

The handicapped, elderly, and stroller operating passengers might have something to say about that. Now picture that walk with ice on the ground or wind hitting your face, we do live in Canada after all.

 

[Electrify]

Nobody seems to be mentioning the fact that walking is good for you and there's nothing wrong with a daily commute that involves some physical activity. An extra 4 minutes of brisk walking is time better spent than sitting in a streetcar for the same period.

This. I keep seeing tweets from urbanists saying that being close to transit is good for your health, but those health benefits are questionable if everything is closer to a transit stop than to your own garage.

Many people who sit on their behinds in an office for 6-8 hours run for seats on the subway. I doubt those people would embrace some physical activity in their daily commute.

That's one hell of a false dichotomy. There is a difference between walking to a transit stop and standing in a moving vehicle...

The handicapped, elderly, and stroller operating passengers might have something to say about that. Now picture that walk with ice on the ground or wind hitting your face, we do live in Canada after all.

My 90 year old grandmother regularly walks over a kilometer round trip from her seniors residence on Spadina to Bloor and back. Studies also find that physical activity is inductive, that the more seniors walk the more they are able to walk.

For those who cannot walk short distances, Wheeltrans is better equipped to meet their needs.

 

[Electrify]

It's only 6 minutes if you're taking the whole line. What % of people will be doing that?

For others removing the midblock stops will add time. Let's look at a few examples:

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...17107,-79.2924739,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 7 minutes (600m) from just over 2 minutes (190m)

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...@43.7885286,-79.2629378,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 9 minutes (750m) from just over 5 minutes (450m)

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/43.7...@43.8007751,-79.2125545,17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 - removing the midblock stop bumps your walk to 4 minutes (350m) from just over 9 minutes (700m)

As Steve Munro speaks about in this article - http://stevemunro.ca/?p=7223 - "This 2011 paper from the Victoria (B.C.) Transport Policy Institute reviews the factors that affect transit’s attractiveness and how these might be applied. Of particular interest is the notion that making a trip more comfortable (less crowded, more convenient) can produce comparable improvement to reductions in travel time.

This is not surprising when one considers that transit riders assign a high penalty value to unpredictable events such as waiting for a bus or transferring between routes, and their perception of a journey is affected by how easily they can board and comfortably ride.

This has important implications for planning since time costs are a dominant factor in transport project evaluation. Conventional evaluation practices tend to ignore qualitative factors, assigning the same time value regardless of travel conditions, and so undervalue service improvements that increase comfort and convenience. Yet, a quality improvement that reduces travel time unit costs by 20% provides benefits equivalent to an operational improvement that increases travel speeds by 20%. [p. 2]"

People don't perceive all portions of their trips equally. If your walk jumps from 4 minutes to 9 minutes, the perceived increase in travel time is going to be much greater than the extra 5 minutes it'll take you to get to the stop. This will be aggravated when you're running late and you see a train pass you by or when weather conditions are poor.

That's not to say that we should have stops 75m apart - there comes a point where there are diminishing returns - but my point is that for plenty of people the impact will be much greater than 6 minutes, to the point that a number will be disincentivized to take transit.

Ultimately it's a balancing act and there's no correct answer, but at the very least we need to acknowledge that there will be people to which cutting out the midblock stops will be a significant downgrade.

Likewise studies show that people are willing to walk further to faster and/or more frequent and reliable service. Much of this could be addressed if the TTC actually performed some passenger counts at these midblock stops to see if it warrants investment. Referencing my study, despite people saying they would not mind walking further, Ionview was surprisingly heavily used and had a fair mix of density and uses surrounding it, so I would recommend keeping a stop there. However Bay Mills saw on average 5 people per hour using it, so no, it does not need a midblock stop!

 

[Canadian Chocho]

My 90 year old grandmother regularly walks over a kilometer round trip from her seniors residence on Spadina to Bloor and back. Studies also find that physical activity is inductive, that the more seniors walk the more they are able to walk.

For those who cannot walk short distances, Wheeltrans is better equipped to meet their needs.

Considering your grandmother is well past the average Canadian life expectancy, I think her ability to do that is more of an outlier than the norm. I'm sure she is able to do that precisely because she made a point to walk, my 88 year old grandparents are the same way (my grandfather is so stubborn he'd rather limp than walk with a cane). However, we must account for the notion that most elderly people are not capable of doing that and we ought to keep that in mind when building transit. They should not be cast aside to Wheel-trans for basic trips that could be done with adequately planned transit. Public transit should serve the general public and not exclusively the working age commuter. Besides how are we going to rely on Wheel-Trans to transport our seniors given the aging nature of our population.

I'm not saying we should go extremely out of our way to cater to them, and I understand that whatever we build has to be efficient for the average commuter. But I'm not so sure I believe its appropriate to assume our elderly will 'toughen up' and walk and segregate them from using general transit.

Also we should really be taking more into account the distances for these walks as a 5 minute walk isn't quite a 5 minute walk for someone who's walking speed is less than 5km/h.

FWIW
Fatalities and Injuries by Traffic Control Presence by Age Group, 2001

 

[W. K. Lis]

Break a leg, sprain an ankle, and then try to use public transit, even if it just for a short while. I'll find that a surface LRT stop much more preferably than an underground or overground station. Will the elevators or escalators be working? Or would you be able to take the stairs, even one step at a time.

 

[Electrify]

For the record, we are talking about the TTC and not an ambulatory service shuttling wounded soldiers out of a warzone, right? This is becoming more appeal to emotion rather than on rational facts. Here is the reality: 95% have no problems or troubles accessing transit, 4% of people may need an electric wheelchair or other assistance, and 1% will require WheelTrans.