TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Too early to say Sheppard is done for. We don't know who will be in City Hall in a year. Our candidates will likely be pro transit funding with massive plans (Stintz and Chow)
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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)
- Thread starter Le Gique
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Stintz might well support a downtown relief line, but there's no indication she's going to push GTA-wide rapid transit construction. From her record on TTC, she's overseen unnecessary service cuts and increased loading standards.
I'm not sure where Chow will land, but she and her husband fought very hard against a Downtown Relief Line previously. I've seen no admission from her that this was a mistake. Given the NDP's history of transit cuts and freezes, I'm not convinced she'd be the one with the massive plan
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Stintz may not support GTA wide, but she would most definitely support Toronto wide. Have you seen her OneCity plan?
(By the way when I said support for revenue tools, I meant seperare from the one implemented by Metrolinx (like with the OneCity plan). Metrolinx's $50 Billion plan is inadequate for Toronto.)
And if Stintz comes out with a megaplan I would imagine Chow woild follow in her footsteps. If she didn't, she would end up with no transit strategy, being Ford 2.0 (transit for Free!), or have a much smaller and less impressive plan (Transit City plus some extensions). I don't think Chow wants to be in any of those positions.
I dont think supporting a transit tax for Toronto would be hard for Chow. Just spew out something about how this small tax increase will help families across Toronto get jobs (which is true).
(By the way when I said support for revenue tools, I meant seperare from the one implemented by Metrolinx (like with the OneCity plan). Metrolinx's $50 Billion plan is inadequate for Toronto.)
And if Stintz comes out with a megaplan I would imagine Chow woild follow in her footsteps. If she didn't, she would end up with no transit strategy, being Ford 2.0 (transit for Free!), or have a much smaller and less impressive plan (Transit City plus some extensions). I don't think Chow wants to be in any of those positions.
I dont think supporting a transit tax for Toronto would be hard for Chow. Just spew out something about how this small tax increase will help families across Toronto get jobs (which is true).
nfitz
Superstar
Sorry, I was thinking Toronto-wide.
Far comment ... if she sticks to it, then perhaps that would work. She just seems to change her mind so often, I have little confidence. But I guess she has a better track record than "we don't want a DRL" Chow.
Adjei
Senior Member
We are already having a hard time implementing the Metrolinx revenue tools and you now want to add new ones, good luck with that.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The new Toronto dedicated transit tax had 80% support among Toronto residents. Never have I seen 80% of us agree on anything, let alone a tax hike.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
^I missed that. When did Layton & Chow campaign against a DRL? TBH, the DRL is new to me in the past five years, so I guess I shouldn't be shocked to learn new things about its political history, but this surprises me.
voxpopulicosmicum
Senior Member
To borrow a page from the Ford Nation songbook: why do you hate Agincourt so much? Why are other parts of the city entitled to rapid transit, but Agincourt has to settle for buses? End the war on Agincourt! /s
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
I am really interested as to why people don't like surface LRT, but they'll embrace BRT. I finally had the chance to check out the YRT busway on Highway 7, and I was quite impressed by the infrastructure, but one thing that stood out for me was the busway wasn't entirely grade-seperated., and no signal priority (from my observations). Yet, I heard nothing but accolades for it.
Other than the tech, there isn't much operational difference between a median busway and a median LRT. So why the hatred towards SELRT? I don't get it.
Other than the tech, there isn't much operational difference between a median busway and a median LRT. So why the hatred towards SELRT? I don't get it.
rbt
Senior Member
The DRL concept has been around since the mid 80's. Bloor/Yonge was severely over capacity in the late 80's and the choices were build the DRL or expand Bloor/Yonge station.
Downtown residents were not in favour of the DRL. They saw it cutting up their neighbourhood to the benefit of suburban residents.
In '92 the decision to expand Bloor/Yonge was made as nearby building construction made it possible/cheaper.
In '93 NDP funded the Sheppard and Eglinton subway options at roughly the same price tag as the DRL proposal.
A couple reasons why:
1) BRT has a lower construction cost than LRT. Even with the gold-plated BRT that VIVA built, it's still 33% less expensive ($20 million/km less) than in-median LRT. If VIVA had gone with shoulder lanes and nice stops on the sidewalk, it may very well have been half the cost of LRT, or even less.
2) BRT can be built in stages, with high-demand sections getting an upgrade first. With BRT, if you're running from Point A to Point D, and the congestion is worst from A-B and C-D, you can build BRT from A-B and C-D, and keep it running in mixed traffic (or with only minimal improvements) from B-C. With LRT, you would need to build the entire thing from A-D. Ottawa's Transitway still has some sections that run in dedicated shoulder lanes on highways, despite being open for nearly 30 years. No way you could do that with an LRT.
Those two factors combined means that BRT projects can be broken down and phased, leading to a smaller budget impact overall, and an even smaller one if it's a couple of small sections every couple of years. If I were planning BRT on Sheppard, I would start out with doing queue jump lanes at every major intersection. After that, I would identify choke points in between intersections, and likely put in dedicated shoulder lanes hooking up to the queue jump lanes. The end result would probably be partially dedicated lanes over the 404 (vehicles turning onto the 404 allowed into the lane), fully dedicated lanes from the 404 to McCowan, and queue jump lanes from McCowan to Meadowvale.
As for the hatred of the SELRT, 2 big reasons:
1) The transfer at Don Mills. It's annoying, and with an LRT to HRT transfer, it's most likely a permanent one. At least with a BRT to HRT transfer, there can be a sense that the subway could be extended further east one day. The SELRT pretty much cuts that possibility off for at least a generation.
2) It's overkill. The only section of the SELRT that really NEEDS LRT is from Don Mills to Victoria Park, maybe to Warden. East of there, it's squarely in the wheelhouse for BRT. Even the peak point peak period ridership is only 3,100 pphpd. The Southwest Transitway in Ottawa, which operates a significant section of shoulder bus lanes, carries more than that, and it does just fine.
The scheme that I described above could likely be done for around $300 million. That's less than 1/3rd the cost of the SELRT. That extra 2/3rds is paying for capacity that isn't needed, and for a transfer that will be a PITA for a generation or more. If the 404 area does become problematic for travel times, it would be a much wiser expense to extend the Sheppard Subway to Victoria Park to bypass it, and build a new HRT to BRT transfer location there.
sixrings
Senior Member
But you need a wider street to accommodate a BRT and you need more buses since a LRT would carry more capacity....
Anyways my BIG problem with extendind Sheppard as a Subway east is that IF the DRL gets built, like many I believe it should go as north as possible. The ideal connection would be Sheppard. However if the Sheppard subway was extended that would mean that someone on sheppard would be taking a Bus to victoria park or warden, jumping on a subway one or two stops then transferring again to the DRL. We talk about hating transfers but if we look forward enough years then by extending the Sheppard line one or two stops we are essentially forcing another transfer. Like GWeed I think the DRL needs to prioritize the east side. I would rather a shorter west section and a longer Don Mills part of the line.
Anyways my BIG problem with extendind Sheppard as a Subway east is that IF the DRL gets built, like many I believe it should go as north as possible. The ideal connection would be Sheppard. However if the Sheppard subway was extended that would mean that someone on sheppard would be taking a Bus to victoria park or warden, jumping on a subway one or two stops then transferring again to the DRL. We talk about hating transfers but if we look forward enough years then by extending the Sheppard line one or two stops we are essentially forcing another transfer. Like GWeed I think the DRL needs to prioritize the east side. I would rather a shorter west section and a longer Don Mills part of the line.
You need an extra 1-2m, depending on how much of a buffer you want between general lanes and the BRT lanes. On most suburban arterials, that isn't a show-stopper. And if you're doing shoulder lanes, you don't need to widen the road as much at intersections, because you don't need space in the middle of the road for stations.
But if you don't need that capacity? The Sheppard East LRT would be running either a) mostly empty trains most of the day, or b) trains so far apart that it would become inconvenient.
So your basis for not supporting a subway extension is that a DRL extension to Sheppard, which is likely 30 years away, at best, would inconvenience riders coming from the east? I would venture to say that by the time the DRL is extended to Sheppard, that the Sheppard Subway would probably be extended to Agincourt, in order to connect with the Stouffville GO.
And if we're talking about future DRL extensions, I would say extending it to Finch and Seneca College has more merit as a terminus than Sheppard.
sixrings
Senior Member
1. Correct Finch is ideal but thats even farther away then Sheppard.
2. I've been an advocate for the ARL to be converted to become the western DRL for a long time. That would be the cheapest and quickest way to serve the west. It would also allow us considerable more money to dedicate to the east. With the savings from the west we could get the eastern DRL to Sheppard and it would be a better sell to the inner suburbs..
Good point. Personally, I'd rather see the ARL become part of the GO REX network, but I suppose it would serve the same function. As for the DRL East, if you want it further north to Sheppard, I think that elevating it above Don Mills would be the best way of doing it, especially north of York Mills.
I still don't think that a few stop extension of the Sheppard Subway will inconvenience people that much though. The benefits certainly outweigh the drawbacks.