Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Voltz]

So.. If nobody is bothering to check their balance on the GO readers, why is it suddenly necessary for TTC to have that functionality at the gate in addition to the kiosk?

People are checking their balance on the GO readers, not everyone of course, but it is not causing backlogs at the readers.

The TTC would not need to have the balance displayed on the subway gates since it can be checked on the self serve kiosks, and the new gates do not have displays, but I suppose they could use the display where the green arrow is.

 

[amnesiajune]

TTC has been the first transit agency sued (and lost) in the last 3 rounds of lawsuits. Electronic subway stop announcements, signs on buses, etc. were by court order. I can't blame TTC for being cautious.

The TTC isn't being cautious. They're behind. That's why they got sued. YRT and Go Transit had those before the TTC. They both have to work under the same AODA rules.

Anyways, "if one person can have it then nobody can" isn't the real reason either. You can't fit three disabled people on a TTC bus or thirteen on a subway train, but they'll have no problem putting 60 people on buses and 1,100 people on subways.

 

[Forgotten]

It's called public transportation not public bookkeeping. Tap your card and get out of the way for the next in line. People got places to be at and schedules to stick to.

 

[johntauren]

So.. If nobody is bothering to check their balance on the GO readers, why is it suddenly necessary for TTC to have that functionality at the gate in addition to the kiosk?

It takes just a second to notice your balance, which is why no one lingers at all, other than just to confirm the transaction.

Just wondering....how do you know the backup is because of lack of machines....not people spending a sub-optimal length of time (on average) at the machines that are there? How can you say with confidence that the line ups would not shorten if the balance display was removed?

Because there's only so many people that can board a bus at once, plus the system itself has a very brief period after someone taps until the next person can tap.

The TTC Presto readers are massive for just a check mark. Why was so much space needed? It doesn't even show if you being charged a second fare or making a valid transfer (of which a second fare is sometimes incorrectly charged, or a valid transfer is given when under the TTC's current transfer rules it shouldn't).
Non-TTC readers are much smaller and give more info.

Additionally, if we are moving to distance fares, or even just the Spadina extension (there is still no concrete answer from any transit agency how the new Spadina extension will work for York U students - just speculation) with tap out would be essential to make sure that one is charged correctly.

The TTC isn't being cautious. They're behind. That's why they got sued. YRT and Go Transit had those before the TTC. They both have to work under the same AODA rules.

 

[rbt]

It takes just a second to notice your balance, which is why no one lingers at all, other than just to confirm the transaction.

Exactly. 1 second increases would increase time spent at the reader by about 25% in a well designed system.

Tapping and clearing the gates/reader for the next person is a 3 to 4 second operation when everything is designed well. Most busy systems, which would include the TTC (and GO at times of the day), attempt to make the fare payment + gates fast enough that the customer doesn't need to break their stride. Of course, GO has a horrible setup at Union with readers all tucked away against walls which get approached from all directions and require a full-stop and sometimes reverse or back-out to use.

A far better design for Union might be the Amsterdam Centraal model. They've installed fare-gate like things (no doors or fare-paid area, just stanchion at gaps spread across common entry/exit points) which allows for throughput on the 15 tap per stanchion per minute mark. There's no excuse to have lines at readers for GO; stairs at Union are a natural customer throttle.

If you want a balance printout, it needs to be adjacent to the gate NOT on the reader. I still don't see the point in it there either; by the time you tap it's already too late.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It takes just a second to notice your balance, which is why no one lingers at all, other than just to confirm the transaction.

How do you actually know that anyone checks their balance every time they tap from what I've observed there is no way anyone is unless the machine does something different. Every Time I have used the go train I have always seen poel tao as they were going around the corner or up the stairs and not even look at the machine as they proceed to the platform. I'm sure more [pole check their presto card online then do it when they tap at a machine.

 

[amnesiajune]

Again... Most cities show you your balance. It's not rocket science. It's not some catastrophe for disabled people. There are no long lines at the gates as people check their balances. Nobody's looking around to steal transit farecards.

The TTC's choice not to show it is indefensible as far as I've seen. The excuses people make up for this are really, really stupid.

 

[nfitz]

The TTC isn't being cautious. They're behind. That's why they got sued. YRT and Go Transit had those before the TTC. They both have to work under the same AODA rules.

I don't recall stop announcements on GO buses before TTC buses - other way round if I recall correct. Can't speak to YRT.

Behind? They were pretty early to the table on that issue. Bottom line is that TTC get's sued, when other agencies don't. There's still no electronic signage on most GO Train coaches, and only recently on any. But it's TTC that someone goes after. Can't blame them for being careful.

I don't know why we are discussing this for the umpteenth time - reddit seems a better forum for beating dead horses.

 

[johntauren]

It keeps getting brought up because people keep complaining about it.

It'll always been an issue until it's changed, or even just a proper answer from the TTC or Metrolinx is given.

 

[amnesiajune]

I don't know why we are discussing this for the umpteenth time - reddit seems a better forum for beating dead horses.

* browses page 867 of people suggesting an elevated subway on the current SRT route *

We're discussing it because the TTC hasn't said anything except "we know this is an issue". Maybe it's just me, but sometimes it seems like the TTC is purposely bungling their Presto implementation and hoping that people will blame it on Metrolinx instead of them.

 

[nfitz]

I thought TTC had initially commented it was an accessibility issue. But searching all I find is the echo chamber. If you went through a few years of TTC ACAT minutes there might be something.

 

[salsa]

Oh FFS.

 

[amnesiajune]

Amazing how the TTC can't figure out something that Go Transit (tap off to calculate FBD) and YRT (charge a different fare on a few express routes) have been doing for years - flawlessly in the case of Go Transit, and almost flawlessly in the case of YRT (on YRT you get free transfers from normal routes to express routes, without being charged the 50¢ extra.)

 

[Palma]

By not complaining.

It's literally that easy. Toronto has a serious "change" problem right now, where anything different than the status quo immediately has all of its flaws attacked and its benefits largely ignored. Can you imagine if the fare policy was like in the 1970s, where drivers were making change for passengers' fares while they drove the bus/streetcar, and the TTC tried to implement an exact change-only policy? People would lose it. Even the discontinuation of tickets (~10 years ago) wasn't easy, and there's literally nothing you could do with a ticket that you couldn't with a token, besides putting it in certain parts of your wallet.

Admittedly though, the TTC's Presto implementation has a serious flaw with balance checking. Why does every other transit system show your remaining balance but not the TTC? I have no clue, and I haven't heard any rational explanation ("other people might see your balance" isn't one).

plus the fact that once you load money on-line, you need to wait 24 hrs to use it. How crazy if this! Plus when I check the balance it will show i.e $2.85, yet when I check activity it shows 80 cents. Which is it? It actually for my son who has a Presto card - student

 

[amnesiajune]

Plus the fact that once you load money on-line, you need to wait 24 hrs to use it. How crazy if this!

Not very. For one, it's usually not that long - it can be, but most card reader will have your transaction ready to apply to the card within a few hours. And regardless, practically every farecard system in the world has a similar wait time - instant reloading is expensive and unreliable.