Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[W. K. Lis]

This would mean more and more wi-fi needed just about everywhere.

lol. Used to be that parents were upset about wi-fi in schools. Now they have their own wi-fi at home and probably want wi-fi everywhere. See link.

 

[steveintoronto]

This would mean more and more wi-fi needed just about everywhere.

lol. Used to be that parents were upset about wi-fi in schools. Now they have their own wi-fi at home and probably want wi-fi everywhere. See link.

This is why the *cards* are actually 'dumb' not "smart", is because of the lack of connectivity to GO and TTC buses. The TTC was supposed to be getting a new communications system that would connect in real-time to the central data-base.

To be clear, my friend's complaint (besides not being able to view her history on-line after having the card for a week and exhausting $18 in TTC fares) is that the subsequent on-line reload she did also was unable to be viewed! How can that be explained by lack of remote communication busses? Obviously it's vastly more than inherent latency. It's stacked in a batch somewhere.

Btw: I have a severe disagreement with the claims for RF fields and Wi-Fi affecting youth. What's affecting them isn't RF, it's lack of attention, thus their walking around like zombies attached to their iMemyslef devices.

The same was said for years about cell-phones in aircraft. Well guess what? How many aircraft have crashed because of allowing it now? It's been an inside joke in the broadcast engineering world for decades. You get *vastly more* radiation from other sources, and start with TV...and the Sun and Cosmos.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The

This is why the *cards* are actually 'dumb' not "smart", is because of the lack of connectivity to GO and TTC buses. The TTC was supposed to be getting a new communications system that would connect in real-time to the central data-base.

The vision system is separate from presto and always has been. The presto readers on buses and streetcars communicate comunicte in real time on a set schedule via a cleurier network or via wifi when they station sation. Otten bus readerrs pick up and pass on the information to presto long before a fare gate does in Toronto

 

[steveintoronto]

The vision system is separate from presto and always has been. The presto readers on buses and streetcars communicate comunicte in real time on a set schedule via a cleurier network or via wifi when they station sation. Otten bus readerrs pick up and pass on the information to presto long before a fare gate does in Toronto

I'm sorry, you're going to have to spell and reference your claims exactly to allow me to understand your points, but from what I can gather, you make my friend's exasperation with Presto's dallying even more to the point if the TTC approaches 'realtime' with updating. She's never used Presto on GO, let alone travelled on any other transit system in Canada other than TTC. Up until the two-hour transfer policy change, she used tokens. Now to use the new two-hour feature, she bought a Presto Card, on-line. It was mailed to her, pre-loaded. She's registered it and topped it up on-line. And still no ability to see her account events, let alone the the balance changing from the few dollars left on the card.

So wi-fi, data-stream, smoke signals, whatever. How is this "the norm"? In all fairness, as I stated prior, she uses an iMeMyself pad, and a German version software, so maybe there's some sort of incompatibility?

I use very up-to-date Linux on a desktop, but what's displayed on hers is different. I suspect it isn't incompatibility, as if it is, then there's yet another shortcoming in Presto's cross-platform ability. Her device has worked well in Europe on a number of systems.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to spell and reference your claims exactly to allow me to understand your points, but from what I can gather, you make my friend's exasperation with Presto's dallying even more to the point if the TTC approaches 'realtime' with updating. She's never used Presto on GO, let alone travelled on any other transit system in Canada other than TTC. Up until the two-hour transfer policy change, she used tokens. Now to use the new two-hour feature, she bought a Presto Card, on-line. It was mailed to her, pre-loaded. She's registered it and topped it up on-line. And still no ability to see her account events, let alone the the balance changing from the few dollars left on the card.

So wi-fi, data-stream, smoke signals, whatever. How is this "the norm"? In all fairness, as I stated prior, she uses an iMeMyself pad, and a German version software, so maybe there's some sort of incompatibility?

I use very up-to-date Linux on a desktop, but what's displayed on hers is different. I suspect it isn't incompatibility, as if it is, then there's yet another shortcoming in Presto's cross-platform ability. Her device has worked well in Europe on a number of systems.

That's a issue with presto having to have the card register in the system after the first time it's used. Even if its preloaded when you buy it either on line or at a store or station it takes 24 hours from the first tap after its been resisted to an account for it to show up.

 

[rbt]

Since you're such an IT expert, can you explain how they can have instant reloads on cards that are on mobile vehicles or underground, without a stable constant wired internet connection, without spending additional funds that taxpayers and governments are unwilling to allocate to something that is already seen as "too expensive"?

The answer to this is all of the knowledge about the card (balance, recent trip history, etc.) is stored on the physical card you keep in your pocket. The mobile balance topup is instant because you have the card in the machine and it writes the new balance to the card.

The central backend, which drives the website, only receives a periodic copy of that information and that can be up to 24 hours if there is, for example, a bus without a live network connection (they connect to the wifi at the maintenance facilities on a nightly basis).

It's basically the way 90's smart cards worked to get around poor cellular network connectivity. I'm not sure why Presto used that as their starting design at a time when the bank industry had standardized their own "tap" protocols which work differently (Oyster has moved to that new protocol and is dumping their 90's design).

 

[nfitz]

Well perhaps if you'd avail yourself of the facts, you wouldn't get so "tired": (This was over a year ago)

It's significant progress, but there's still a 30-minute lag. It's not real time, but it's improvement over the 4-hours for Presto on TTC - though it often seems a lot faster to me. It also requires a newer Oyster card. I doubt, for example, that my 12-year old card would work. My wife's is from 2017, so perhaps it would work.

I wonder why you need the app, instead of just using the website?

I get tired of Canadians thinking they're "world leading" in so many things when they haven't a clue as to what's not only possible, but being done elsewhere.

Even though deeply into electronic design and development, I claim to be a Luddite...by choice (KISS rules!).

But many Ontarians and by extension, Cdns, are Luddites by default. So many are told "it isn't possible, and we're better" and they blandly and blindly believe it. Ford for Premier anyone?

What an odd comment ... I'm not sure what the relevance is. I was referring to "grass is always greener" syndrome - which would be the opposite - the assumption that it is better everywhere else, not worse. In reality, it's much more complex, and everyone is leap-frogging each other in little bits, while still behind in other little bits.

 

[steveintoronto]

I wonder why you need the app, instead of just using the website?

It's called "tap" technology, just like Cdn bank cards now have (most, anyway) for transactions less than $50-$100:

Oyster card app simplifies top-ups in London
A long overdue companion app for the travel card.
Nick Summers, @nisummers
09.07.17 in Transportation
[...]
With the growing popularity of contactless payments, the humble Oyster card has a diminished role on the London Underground. Still, it's a useful option for tourists, children, or anyone who wants to keep a close eye on their travel spending. Today, Transport for London (TfL) has launched a mobile app for iOS and Android that makes it easier to top-up and review your balance. Once your account is set up, you can top-up from anywhere — no more queuing at a ticket machine. After 30 minutes, you simply need to touch a reader and the amount will be added on automatically.

In a perfect world, of course, you wouldn't need to touch the reader at all. That's the case with contactless debit and credit cards, as well as mobile payment platforms such as Apple Pay. Still, it's a step forward for the trusty Oyster. The app also lists your journey history from the last eight weeks (how did I spent that much last month?) and will send a notification when your balance is running low. The latter feature sounds pretty useful, because no-one wants to be that person holding everyone up at the barrier, or rushing to top up while the train glides away from the station. In the future, TfL says you'll be able to apply for refunds through the app too.
[...]

https://www.engadget.com/2017/09/07/london-oyster-card-app-mobile-top-up/

See also: https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/ways-to-pay/tfl-oyster-app

It's significant progress, but there's still a 30-minute lag.

The Oyster system accepts bank cards and smart phones, etc. We covered this a few posts back. In many/most cases, the hysteresis is 15 minutes max for Oyster top-up from mobile payment to show on the central account.

London is even slower than ours.

Last time I checked, 30 minutes is a lot less than 24 hours.

Here's why:

Peter Gribble, Traffic Technology Engineer, Transport for London
Jun 16, 2014

While what the others have said here is accurate for Oyster, the new contactless payment system that's being rolled out now works differently - rather than keeping your data on the Oyster card itself, the card is linked to a centrally stored account. This means that the cards don't have to have as much storage (with all the extra stuff that has been added over the years, the existing cards are getting pretty full), and it means that complicated calculations such as price capping and missing touch-out calculations can be done centrally rather than at the reader, meaning the readers don't have to be as complex. readers with hard data connections, such as tube stations, communicate with the central server to calculate what to do, and mobile readers like the ones on buses will log all the payments, then sync with the remote server every fifteen minutes [...].

The big advantage of the new system to users is that they can do much more complex calculations, like weekly price capping - so your Pay As You Go usage will be capped at the price of a weekly travelcard or bus pass.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-oyst...can-instantly-check-the-record-in-the-station

Previously, the older Oyster cards worked like Presto:

Stephan von Perger, Berlin/London, ex-early stage VC
Answered Oct 25, 2013

The Oyster card stores its value also locally on the chip in the card, i.e. when you swipe in and out in a station where the touchpoint is networked it will remove the required value from your card and sync your balance with the server in realtime, when you use it on a bus it would remove it from the card locally and the touchpoint in the bus can sync with the server at a later point.

The chip on the card should always hold the latest balance of your Oyster account as well as recent journey history, so the reader in the station can just play that back to you.

Another question would be how soon the balance in the online account of your Oyster card would be updated after a bus journey (assuming the bus touch point does not actually have a 3G data connection).

https://www.quora.com/How-does-oyst...can-instantly-check-the-record-in-the-station

Why PRESTO isn’t yet an Oyster?
Lessons for the Toronto region from London's Oyster card
Author(s): Michael Schabas
June 2014
[...]
http://www.neptis.org/publications/why-presto-isnt-yet-oyster

And here's the history behind Oyster card:

[...]
“Smartcard is at the forefront of electronic ticketing, and transport operators all over the world are taking a keen interest in the benefits it can bring,” the London transport minister, Steven Norris, announced at the launch. That same technology went on to inform the city’s iconic Oyster card, which celebrates its 15th anniversary this year.

The first smartcard was issued just after 7am on 3 February 1994, to an enthusiastic passenger, Mr Woodley – along with a commemorative “Get Smart” sweatshirt and mug. At the new dedicated smartcard office at Harrow station, Woodley exchanged his paper photocard bus pass for one that was the size of a credit card and as thick as a pound coin, displaying a digitally printed headshot he had taken moments before.

Each smartcard contained two microchips “giving them as much computing capacity as the small personal computers of the early 1980s”, London Transport spokesman Philip Carter told the Independent at the time. The paper’s transport correspondent, Christian Wolmar, marvelled: “The cards do not even need to be taken out of wallets for them to be electronically read.”
[...]

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...al-contactless-passes-london-travel-smartcard

Metrolinx planning to allow smartphone fare payments as part of Presto system
By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Thu., April 26, 2018

Transit users in the Toronto area could be using smartphones to pay for their fares in a matter of years.
[...]

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...e-fare-payments-as-part-of-presto-system.html

What a concept...

 

[nfitz]

It's called "tap" technology, just like Cdn bank cards now have (most, anyway) for transactions less than $50-$100:

You don't tap your card to your device with the app though. So what's special about your app, that makes your transaction upload to the readers in 30 minutes instead of 24 hours? (a simple "I don't know" would be preferable to posting the entire contents of an article that doesn't actually answer the question - or if it does answer the question, buries it very deep!)

Last time I checked, 30 minutes is a lot less than 24 hours.

Last time I checked, TTC was closer to 120 minutes on buses and streetcars. They say "may" take up to 24 hours to cover their asses. I thought 4 hours was the current spec.

 

[OCCheetos]

Last time I checked, TTC was closer to 120 minutes on buses and streetcars. They say "may" take up to 24 hours to cover their asses. I thought 4 hours was the current spec.

I know this is true in Ottawa on OC Transpo, but I've never heard of anything about the TTC.

 

[steveintoronto]

You don't tap your card to your device with the app though.

Of course not. "After 30 minutes of topping up on their phone, commuters can then touch in to any Tube or rail station using their Oyster Card." In practice, it's typically under 15 minutes latency. They state 30 as the max.

They say "may" take up to 24 hours to cover their asses. I thought 4 hours was the current spec.

The current figure is still 24 hrs. I'm still waiting for for my card to update after my last face to face at Union on Thursday. Won't be until later this week. They admit they screwed up, but it often takes three business days to show on the account.

And London isn't the only city years ahead of Toronto:

Metrolinx planning to allow smartphone fare payments as part of Presto system
By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Thu., April 26, 2018
[...]
“Ultimately it’s about increasing the attractiveness of using public transit,” said Annalise Czerny, acting vice president for Presto.

“It’s giving people choice, and we know everyone wants to use their phone.”

Metrolinx plans to roll out the Presto Mobile program in three phases. The first, scheduled for completion by the end of this year, would be the introduction of an app that would allow customers to add money to their cards and manage their accounts from their phones.

The second would allow riders to pay their fare by tapping their phone against a Presto reader. Czerny said there was no firm time line for completing that phase, but predicted it would take far less than five years. “We’re going as fast as we can,” she said.

The third phase of would add a multi-modal trip planning function to the app, and could be combined with third-party providers like Uber and Bike Share TO to create a single hub for transportation planning and payment.

Presto is not planning to eliminate fare cards as part of the program.

Other transit agencies around the world, including in London, Los Angeles, and Japan, have already enabled smartphone payments or are months away from doing so.
[...]
Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster couldn’t immediately provide a budget for the mobile project, saying it was still in its “experimental phase.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...e-fare-payments-as-part-of-presto-system.html

 

[nfitz]

Of course not. "After 30 minutes of topping up on their phone, commuters can then touch in to any Tube or rail station using their Oyster Card." In practice, it's typically under 15 minutes latency. They state 30 as the max.

You are dodging the question. Why would it take only 30 minutes if you set up top up on your phone app, but 24 hours if you use the Oyster website instead?

 

[steveintoronto]

You are dodging the question. Why would it take only 30 minutes if you set up top up on your phone app, but 24 hours if you use the Oyster website instead?

Are you still trying to rewrite the facts?

TfL makes it easier to top up Oyster cards while on the go
19 July 2017
[...]
The upgrade has also significantly reduced the time it takes for the product to be ready to collect - from up to 24 hours to just 30 minutes.
[...]
The improvements to Oyster will be followed by further upgrades to the system in the coming year.

Next month, the new TfL app will launch, allowing customers to top up their Oyster card with pay as you go credit and buy Travelcards wherever they are.
[...]

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...easier-to-top-up-oyster-cards-while-on-the-go

And here again is the explanation on how TfL changed to newer technology with the Oyster Card. Older cards are still usable, but don't have the features of the newer ones: (This was written before the change in 2016)

TfL plans to replace Oyster smart card technology
24 Feb 2015

UK: Transport for London is exploring options to replace the technology which is currently used inside its Oyster smart cards.

Under the proposal, future Oyster cards would incorporate the contactless payment card technology which is used by bank credit and debit cards. This would allow fare payments to be handled using the proprietary Transit Transaction Model of payment rules and software which TfL developed to enable passengers to pay for travel using contactless bank cards instead of a dedicated smart card.

The Transit Transaction Model was rolled out across rail modes last year, and by moving the focus of the ticketing system from the smart card to the back office has provided TfL with the ability to offer CPC users a greater range of ticketing products, including a more flexible range of fare capping periods than was possible with the older Oyster technology. The development of a TfL CPC Oyster card would extend these benefits to smart card users.

The existing Oyster brand would be retained for the TfL CPC, with just the card technology changing. Passengers would apply for and manage the new card online, with a refundable deposit but no transaction fees for travel. The TfL CPC would only be used for travel, and would not offer the ability to make other payments such as at coffee shops.

If the supply industry response proves positive, the TfL CPC Oyster cards could be ready for passenger use in early 2016.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-to-replace-oyster-smart-card-technology.html

[...]
London and San Francisco, 13 November 2017:

Visa (NYSE: V) today launched Visa Global Transit Solutions, a new program designed to accelerate the use of debit, credit and pre-paid accounts at the fare gate or on a bus reader, speeding up and creating a more convenient experience for mass transit commuters worldwide.

“Visa is the best way to pay and be paid everywhere and on any device. We want to make the transportation experience faster, easier and more secure whether someone is traveling by car, flying on holiday or taking public transportation to work,” said Michael Lemberger, head of products at Visa in Europe. “Visa played an important role in partnering with Transport for London (TfL). We are applying the expertise which has led to more than one billion Visa contactless journeys on TfL to help mass transit operators around the world move away from cash and tickets to contactless payments on buses and trains.”

“We work hard to make public transport in London easy for everyone and developing contactless ticketing has been a huge part of this,” said Shashi Verma, Chief Technology Officer at TfL. “More than 40 percent of pay-as-you-go journeys are now made using contactless cards or mobile devices and we have already seen cards from more than 100 countries around the world using our system. To get to this point, a lot of things needed to change about how the payment industry worked, including the creation of new payment rules. Without our close partnership, we would not have seen the huge benefits to customers that contactless ticketing has already delivered in London.”
[...]

https://www.visaeurope.com/newsroom/news/visa-to-transform-the-mass-transit-experience-worldwide

 

[nfitz]

Are you still trying to rewrite the facts?

You are not reading what I'm writing.

I'm simply wondering why it takes 30 minutes if you use an app to load, but 24 hours if you use the website.

If you have the answer to this, can you simply explain in a few of your own words. No need for the URLs and large-scale copyright violations!

 

[Leo_Chan]

You are not reading what I'm writing.

I'm simply wondering why it takes 30 minutes if you use an app to load, but 24 hours if you use the website.

If you have the answer to this, can you simply explain in a few of your own words. No need for the URLs and large-scale copyright violations!

tin foil hat
They want you to use the app instead of the website because the app has completely unacceptable permission requirements that can track everything you do even when you’re not using the app so that they can sell your data. This is just not possible from an online website.
/tin foil hat