Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[Mapleson]

There seem to be several inaccuracies in this post.

It's only 7 years since roll-out of Oyster to the public started; and it was effectively completed last January, when all the remaining rail companies that were holding out were finally added.

I'm not sure why you are saying it wasn't on the Underground until 2007. It was on the Underground and DRL on Day 1 in 2003.

Certainly the commuter rail rollout has been slow (because of a lack of buy-in by private companies), but for buses and the Underground, it's been pretty static since 2004.

As for rail fare zones ... gosh, that must date back for decades ... 2007? Not sure what you are referring to here ...

Oyster began roll out in 2002 with Cards issued to TfL, LU, and bus operator staff. Public monthly passes began in 2003 as you say, but you couldn't use them for occational use. Pay-as-you-go service has been much slower to rolling out.

I made a major typo somehow and Underground should have been London Overground (surface rail).

In October 2007, it was agreed by all National Rail Operators who operate services in London to implement the scheme by 2009 at the latest. In November 2009, they announced it for specific regions. The 2007 National Rail zones refer to distance based charging that matched up with other distance based zones that extend further back.

 

[Tuscani01]

Except the card is not 100% foolproof, since the card can only be used once for a negative balance, and re-activation requires a trip to a station, and a service charge. It's not that convenient, if you think about it. If that old lady had a card, the cost to her would be higher in the end. I am sure most riders would take the chance with getting away with an under-fare. The process is flawed, and needs to be fixed. We would not even be having this conversation, if you did not have to go through a tedious process just to get out of a negative balance.

How many times should it go into negative before you realize you are short money? It's simple... When you notice its negative, top it up. Better yet, top it up before it gets to negative. The card ensures that you will be able to get onto transit if you are short money. The fact that you can only go into negative once prevents abuse.

Going back to a hypothetical situation.... Lady is short change, with Presto, she gets to ride (while going into negative). Without Presto, there is a chance she might not get to ride. She can either have piece of mind, and a guarantee that she can still ride, or she can take a chance and be stranded if shes not allowed on.

I still don't see how a service charge is more inconvenient than having to go to a bank, take out $20, and then going back to the TTC to buy tokens or a convenience store to make change. Yes she would have to go to Union to have the problem corrected, but that doesn't have to be done before she can get onto transit one last time. For now, she can have confidence that if she is short money, she can still take transit with Presto. Not that it should always get to that point. One would assume that after being short once, you would learn not to let it happen again.

 

[Justin10000]

How many times should it go into negative before you realize you are short money? It's simple... When you notice its negative, top it up. Better yet, top it up before it gets to negative. The card ensures that you will be able to get onto transit if you are short money. The fact that you can only go into negative once prevents abuse.

Right, someone is going to abuse a PRESTO card that is registered to them with their personal info. That's a poor excuse. It's about convenience. That is why a rider will pay $6, plus a minimum of $10 to get a card. Convenience. Allowing someone to go into a negative balance, than saying they have to stand in line at a station, and pay a nominal fee is not convenient. It's not that hard to understand. Why would I want to buy a card, knowing that I may go into a negative balance, and my card is deactivated, forcing me to travel to an office that may be out of my way to get it re-activated? Why not just let the card go into a set negative balance say, $1.00, and when the card is refilled, the negative balance is deducted from whatever amount is loaded onto the card? Why is PRESTO making it hard for riders?

Going back to a hypothetical situation.... Lady is short change, with Presto, she gets to ride (while going into negative). Without Presto, there is a chance she might not get to ride. She can either have piece of mind, and a guarantee that she can still ride, or she can take a chance and be stranded if shes not allowed on.

Sticking with your hypothetical situation, lady is short .30 on her fare. Lady boards bus, and explains to bus driver who might be a regular on her route, she is short some charge. Bus driver, being the decent guy he is, let's her on with the reduced fare. No fuss, no hassle, and lady did not have to travel to a PRESTO office to resolve a fare issue.

I still don't see how a service charge is more inconvenient than having to go to a bank, take out $20, and then going back to the TTC to buy tokens or a convenience store to make change. Yes she would have to go to Union to have the problem corrected, but that doesn't have to be done before she can get onto transit one last time. For now, she can have confidence that if she is short money, she can still take transit with Presto. Not that it should always get to that point. One would assume that after being short once, you would learn not to let it happen again.

It's not about the service charge. It's about having to waste time talking to a PRESTO rep to re-activate the card. You seem to miss the fact that travelling to Union will cost a fare, so if you cannot use your PRESTO card, you are going to have to pay a cash fare anyways. Makes PRESTO somewhat useless, if you have to pay a cash fare to travel to Union to be able to use your card again. A rider is going to wonder wy they paid $6 for a card that seem to less convenient than tokens.

 

[nfitz]

Oyster began roll out in 2002 with Cards issued to TfL, LU, and bus operator staff. Public monthly passes began in 2003 as you say, but you couldn't use them for occational use. Pay-as-you-go service has been much slower to rolling out.

Pay-as-you go was completely rolled out for buses and Underground less than a year after they first started issuing cards to the public. I think you are really overstating your case here.

I made a major typo somehow and Underground should have been London Overground (surface rail).

Ah, so you are saying it didn't get expanded to the Overground until 2007. However London Overground wasn't created until 2007 ... so I don't see a big surprise here! It was simply a regular private rail line until then ... and rollout to those lines wasn't completed until January 2010.

I've had an Oyster card for years, and it seemed fully functional when I got it - except for the commuter rail lines (and perhaps the boats ... never taken one ...). And it certainly was a lot easier to get running than Presto!

I'm not sure your point ... generally implementation seems similiar. Oyster had testing in 2002, rollout starting in 2003, completed in 2004, except for non-co-operative private railways that took until 2010.

Presto started testing in 2008/2009, rollout starting in 2011, complete in 2011, except for non-co-operative public agency (TTC) thay may take until ... 2016?

Biggest difference I see is that Oyster started with monthly passes, and then added pay-as-you-go, while Presto started with pay-as-you-go, and will add monthly passes later this year.

Nick

 

[Mapleson]

^ National Rail only had partial implementation of Oyster before 2004/2007. My point was that Oyster Card has implemented things piecemeal coming out with service improvements every few months since 2002 when they started. I like that system of doing things rather than trying to do everything at once because you've neglected updating the network for so long. Now that it's 2010, Oyster network isn't stopping expanding.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster...l_Rail#Current_acceptance_and_future_schedule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card#Roll-out_history

 

[nfitz]

My point was that Oyster Card has implemented things piecemeal coming out with service improvements every few months since 2002 when they started.

You say that as if it was by design. Day 1, all the buses and tube trains were on-line. They were very frustrated that it was taking so long for the private rail companies to buy-in. Don't you remember all the negative comments from Red Ken?

 

[Mapleson]

^ Are you trying to misconstrue my meaning, or has your over simplication made my point unintelligable to you? What date was Day 1? Was Day 1 when the full Bus and Tube system had Oyster capability? Was Day 1 when the first Oyster card was issued? Was Day 1 when the first Oyster card machine was installed? If so, then I guess the PRESTO roll-out is stupid and they should just bag them all until they can install them at every station and every bus on every network and then make them all go live on "Day 1"?

My point was that the Oyster system had many criticism leveled against it while it was being constructed and first-year operational glitches. They saw these problems and worked to make them better as soon as possible everywhere that made sense. They didn't just say "This is Oyster 1.0. We will update the system to Oyster 2.0 in 2010." They added pay-as-you-go, which wasn't part of the initial system but added in the first year; they removed paper receipts, which was part of the initial system. Oyster wasn't just a static system installed before January 2002, it's been continually developed, expanded, and improved where, when, and how possible. This is the model of development that I like and that I hope PRESTO emulates.

 

[TrickyRicky]

Hey, I don't think it matters who is right or wrong on this fact or that. I just mentioned the Oyster card as an example where a stupid tourist like me who knows nothing about transit thought it was a convenient system. In some cities especially with one-time zone fare tickets I have to ask someone every time or literally stand in front of the machine looking like a moron until someone takes pity on me. The best is if you ask someone and they also don't know so you start to collect a critical mass of morons. The good people running the San Franscisco airport had the smarts to realize that you need the Rosetta stone to decipher how the BART system works so they actually have an employee who stands by the machines full time.

 

[nfitz]

^ Are you trying to misconstrue my meaning, or has your over simplication made my point unintelligable to you?.

I really fail to see you point, which was premised on Oyster taking about 5 years before it was rolled out significantly, which is just fundamentally wrong. It was pretty much rolled out in about12 months ... and most of the hardware was was running on Day 1. Only the private rail companies lagged significantly

What date was Day 1? Was Day 1 when the full Bus and Tube system had Oyster capability? Was Day 1 when the first Oyster card was issued? Was Day 1 when the first Oyster card machine was installed? If so, then I guess the PRESTO roll-out is stupid and they should just bag them all until they can install them at every station and every bus on every network and then make them all go live on "Day 1"?

I'd have thought it was clear, was Day 1 was the day it went public. Presto was about May 1st, 2010. Oyster was around July 2003; I'm afraid I don't know the date. Pay-as-you go was up about 6 months later on the Tube, and a few months after on buses.

 

[Bayer]

So, as I was saying, I had a negative balance on my Presto card, and even after a $20 refill, I had to show up at Union Station to correct the situation.

I tried last Sunday. Of course, the Presto wickets were closed.

Then this week, they refunded my $20, even though I didn't request it. A day later, they took it back from my credit card. Obviously, I'm still in the negative, and I still have to go to Union Station.

An example of payment card that seems to work is the Opus system in Montreal.

 

[Tuscani01]

I tried last Sunday. Of course, the Presto wickets were closed.

You can go to any GO Transit ticket booth at Union Station for Presto help. I've done it and they are all happy to help.

As for Montreal's system... didn't they have problems with it too when it first rolled out?

 

[nfitz]

So I heard a good one from Presto today. I set up an autload; and I went down to Union yesterday to tag the balance checker to activate it. When I log in today, I can see that it's listed as active, but there is still not much money on my card.

When I phoned in, they said that because I'd set the threshold to $20 ... and there was less than a balance of $10 on my card, it wouldn't add the money ... because it only adds the money when the balance drops below the threshold. If you set the autoreload up below the threshold, it's not programmed to add money straight away.

Between the complex activation procedure, the screw-up with the TTC readers, the inability to fix a negative balance on-line, the inability of station staff to reactivate or set up AutoLoad, and failure to check to see if the balance is below the threshold when it AutoLoad initially activates ... it's like the entire program running the card was designed by morons. I just can't fathom such gross incompetence.

 

[Tuscani01]

It's about convenience. That is why a rider will pay $6, plus a minimum of $10 to get a card. Convenience. Allowing someone to go into a negative balance, than saying they have to stand in line at a station, and pay a nominal fee is not convenient. It's not that hard to understand.

So paying a $6 fee for the convenience of using a fare card is ok, but a small fee for the convenience of being able to use public transit when you have no money isn't?

Presto isn't making it hard for riders... It's simple. Keep your card topped up and you don't have to visit Union Station.

Back to bus lady... Driver says no... what does she do then? No transit! Now THATS convenient!

Yes travelling to Union is going to cost a fare, and yes you actually have to talk to someone... but its a small price to pay for the guarantee that you can use your card once more if for some reason you forget to top it up. Im sure the problem will be fixed in the future, but for now, its still a convenience that I have already had to rely on once.

 

[nfitz]

Presto isn't making it hard for riders... It's simple. Keep your card topped up and you don't have to visit Union Station.

If it actually worked, perhaps. I've already visited Union Station 3 times, and I'll have to do a 4th before it's actually working.

There's no reason whatsoever that you shouldn't be able to fix a negative balance on-line, or over the phone. The only conclusion is the person who thought this up is an idiot. The design is horrific, and is not making it easy.

 

[Bayer]

So paying a $6 fee for the convenience of using a fare card is ok, but a small fee for the convenience of being able to use public transit when you have no money isn't?

This isn't about having money or not. I topped up my card, but they still require you to visit Union Station to validate the top-up! I didn't know about that problem at first, and I went in negative territory because I tried to use my card to see if my week-old top-up, which had been processed, had actually been put on my card. It hadn't. Not being able to use that top-up to compensate for the negative balance is beyond idiotic. THEY HAVE MY MONEY. They should be able to use it!

And nfitz, I was afraid of what you are saying about the autoload!! The same thing will happen to me unless there is more than $20 on the card. We'll see next time I go to Union.

It is all incredibly moronic.