Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[DavidH]

Fair enough ... still Metrolinx is part of MTO, as is Presto.

No, Metrolinx is not part of MTO. Metrolinx is a crown agency, which means that it is an independent organization that is owned by the government, but it is NOT part of any ministry. That's why it has its own board, Chair, and CEO. If it was part of MTO, its head would be a Deputy Minister and it would not have a board.

The second problem of not being able to initiate a card by using TTC should have been apparent in the years of testing that occurred at Union Station. Perhaps the failing was that Presto failed to give out the test cards to anyone who wasn't a GO user.

Indeed. Any current users are effectively beta-testers.

Clearly a test case was missed by PRESTO, but why wasn't the TTC looking our for their riders by ensuring that they covered this test case themselves. GO is performing their own testing, and TTC should be as well. The implementation fault is PRESTO's but TTC should have caught it - either during requirements definition or during implementation testing.

 

[nfitz]

No, Metrolinx is not part of MTO. Metrolinx is a crown agency, which means that it is an independent organization that is owned by the government, but it is NOT part of any ministry. That's why it has its own board, Chair, and CEO. If it was part of MTO, its head would be a Deputy Minister and it would not have a board.

Your splitting hairs. Metrolinx is the responsibility of the Minister of Transport, and it is listed that way in the Ontario government directory.

Clearly a test case was missed by PRESTO, but why wasn't the TTC looking our for their riders by ensuring that they covered this test case themselves

A better question is why are government employees simply blaming others for this rather than simply fixing the problem? This Ontario government tendancy to point fingers at other ministires and agencies rather than just solving the problem is disgraceful ... but I guess you have to keep 1000s of paper-pushers busy somehow.

 

[Mapleson]

Fair enough ... still Metrolinx is part of MTO, as is Presto.

No, Metrolinx is a crown corporation. They report to the Minister of Transportation and Lieutenant Governor, but that's the only overlap with the MTO.

I fail to see how going negative on your card, and then not being able to simply fix the problem on-line has anything to do with TTC. The second problem of not being able to initiate a card by using TTC should have been apparent in the years of testing that occurred at Union Station. Perhaps the failing was that Presto failed to give out the test cards to anyone who wasn't a GO user.

Why did he go negative? Because the TTC-location installation did not/could not validate his card. Why can't TTC-location installations validate cards? Is it because PRESTO, Accuruture, Metrolinx, or the MTO said "I know, let's only install the cheapest card readers possible at TTC-locations because their passangers won't really use it anyway"?

TTC Management is responsible for insisting on performance levels of equipment added to their system. TTC Management is responsible for deciding which locations and what type of installations are done first. That's why I say the TTC is responsible for their part of the system, just like I'd hold Mississauga Transit responsible if my card couldn't be validated at Square One.

PRESTO is a supposed to be a collaboration, so if PRESTO failed to send out test cards to TTC users, I think that's partly TTC's fault for not insisting some test cards be sent to their users.

 

[DavidH]

Your splitting hairs. Metrolinx is the responsibility of the Minister of Transport, and it is listed that way in the Ontario government directory.

The Metrolinx act does provide that the Minister of Transportation can issue directives to Metrolinx (why not, the government owns Metrolinx and the Minister of Transport is the most appropriate cabinet minister). But that is NOT the same as saying that MTO and Metrolinx have anything in common in day to day operations.

As for the "splitting hairs" thing, it's directly relevant because you're blaming Metrolinx for the TTC problems and I'm telling you that Metrolinx has absolutely NOTHING to do with that side of things. That's on MTO's head, and that's an entirely different bunch of people. It's not splitting hairs to tell you that you are blaming the wrong people.

A better question is why are government employees simply blaming others for this rather than simply fixing the problem? This Ontario government tendancy to point fingers at other ministires and agencies rather than just solving the problem is disgraceful ... but I guess you have to keep 1000s of paper-pushers busy somehow.

It's not up to government employees, it's up to Accenture, and that has to wait in line with other work that they have (there are other problems to deal with). And software problems are never "simply" fixed on a production system; even once the fix is made, it has to be tested to ensure that it won't create other problems elsewhere.

 

[DavidH]

NWhy can't TTC-location installations validate cards? Is it because PRESTO, Accuruture, Metrolinx, or the MTO said "I know, let's only install the cheapest card readers possible at TTC-locations because their passangers won't really use it anyway"?

No one other than GO was ever expected to install balance checkers, so this has the feel of being a software problem that wasn't caught. That's not surprising; this stuff happens in any complex project. The failure here is that it wasn't caught before being made available to the public.

 

[nfitz]

The Metrolinx act does provide that the Minister of Transportation can issue directives to Metrolinx (why not, the government owns Metrolinx and the Minister of Transport is the most appropriate cabinet minister). But that is NOT the same as saying that MTO and Metrolinx have anything in common in day to day operations.

... sure, but I don't see the importance of this how many angels can dance on the head of the pin discussion. I never said Metrolinx wasn't an agency, merely that it is the responsibility of MTO.

As for the "splitting hairs" thing, it's directly relevant because you're blaming Metrolinx for the TTC problems and I'm telling you that Metrolinx has absolutely NOTHING to do with that side of things. That's on MTO's head, and that's an entirely different bunch of people.

I'm not blaming Metrolinx. You quite correctly pointed out that Presto isn't aprt of Metrolinx, and I haven't disputed that. Not only did I not dispute that, I pointed out the contact information for the Ministry of Transportation employee responsible for Presto. Why you are still going on about something that I acknowledged several posts ago is beyond me. You quite clearly have been infected by this poisonous work environment at the government, where everyone is far more intersted in their own fiefdoms, than actually accomplishing anything.

The problem here is that there is a contract with a vendor (Accenture) that has a rigidly defined scope. If this TTC requirement was not defined in the contract, it's a change request and that has to get dealt with before Accenture will lift a finger to do anything about the problem.

They the company should be repalced by one that actually works co-operatively with the government paying them $millions. Obviously not having the abiltiy to use one's card without visting someone in person, after the balance goes negative is a huge mistake, that should have been caught by either Presto or Accenture. Not sure what this aspect even has to do with TTC.

And where did you see a government employee blaming another for this?

Oh come on ... anyone who starts arguing about the legal structure of the Ministry of Transport, rather than the actual issue, clearly is either (or has been) a government employee or contractor.

 

[DavidH]

... sure, but I don't see the importance of this how many angels can dance on the head of the pin discussion. I never said Metrolinx wasn't an agency, merely that it is the responsibility of MTO.

I'm not blaming Metrolinx. You quite correctly pointed out that Presto isn't aprt of Metrolinx, and I haven't disputed that.

Actually, you did dispute that by saying that Metrolinx is a part of MTO and (paraphrasing) that it's all the same thing, and that all of these government employees need to stop redirecting blame and fix it.

I'm not disputing that it needs to be fixed, but that starts by putting the blame where it belongs.

You quite clearly have been infected by this poisonous work environment at the government, where everyone is far more intersted in their own fiefdoms, than actually accomplishing anything.

I don't work for the government, and never have except for a few years as a summer student. I have spent my entire adult life working in the private sector. But hey, let's not let facts stand in the way when you can post a personal attack.

They the company should be repalced by one that actually works co-operatively with the government paying them $millions. Obviously not having the abiltiy to use one's card without visting someone in person, after the balance goes negative is a huge mistake, that should have been caught by either Presto or Accenture. Not sure what this aspect even has to do with TTC.

I personally think the Accenture contract is messed up beyond belief, and I have real doubts about how long it will take PRESTO to be up and working properly. I'm quite glad that GO buses won't be getting it until 2011, so there is no way I will be a guinea pig on this. But "the company should be replaced"? Depends on what the contract is, but you *do* realize that replacing Accenture at this point will essentially reset the entire project and mean that we will be lucky to have a fare card in the next decade? No, what will happen is that Accenture will have to meet acceptance tests (whatever is in the contract) and possibly face penalties.

Not sure what this aspect even has to do with TTC.

Because TTC is an involved agency, albeit on a limited scale, and has responsibly for planning their involvement, and for testing the results. Trust me when I say that GO has been testing the equipment in their stations. TTC is responsible for doing the same. No, they are not the implementor, but they are still involved and have responsibilities here.

I'm not denying that PRESTO and Accenture have fault there; they absolutely do, but so does the TTC.

Oh come on ... anyone who starts arguing about the legal structure of the Ministry of Transport, rather than the actual issue, clearly is either (or has been) a government employee or contractor.

I'm not arguing over the legal structure; I'm pointing out that you were blaming the wrong people. It's not Metrolinx's responsibility to fix this because they have no involvement in that end of the project.

Anyway, I think we've exhausted this topic. Let's just agree that there is a problem that needs to get fixed, and complaining to the PRESTO project head you listed is the best way to go.

 

[nfitz]

Actually, you did dispute that by saying that Metrolinx is a part of MTO and (paraphrasing) that it's all the same thing, and that all of these government employees need to stop redirecting blame and fix it.

I didn't disupte that Presto was under Metrolinx. I was simply trying to make it clear that they were all under the same Minister, and should therefore be working together. Wasn't Presto supposed to be transferred to Metrolinx? Back in 2008 before they took over GO, Metrolinx said that they "will assume responsibility for the operation of the GO Transit system and the Presto Fare Card project". They've now assumed responsibility for GO ... but I guess Presto hasn't been moved.

I don't work for the government, and never have except for a few years as a summer student. I have spent my entire adult life working in the private sector. But hey, let's not let facts stand in the way when you can post a personal attack.

Okay, I apologise ... your reaction just seemed ... well almost defensive.

I personally think the Accenture contract is messed up beyond belief, and I have real doubts about how long it will take PRESTO to be up and working properly. I'm quite glad that GO buses won't be getting it until 2011, so there is no way I will be a guinea pig on this. But "the company should be replaced"? Depends on what the contract is, but you *do* realize that replacing Accenture at this point will essentially reset the entire project and mean that we will be lucky to have a fare card in the next decade? No, what will happen is that Accenture will have to meet acceptance tests (whatever is in the contract) and possibly face penalties.

Wow ... it seems unfortunate that it's tied so much to a particular company. I can see why TTC has qualms about the project!

 

[DavidH]

I didn't disupte that Presto was under Metrolinx. I was simply trying to make it clear that they were all under the same Minister, and should therefore be working together. Wasn't Presto supposed to be transferred to Metrolinx? Back in 2008 before they took over GO, Metrolinx said that they "will assume responsibility for the operation of the GO Transit system and the Presto Fare Card project". They've now assumed responsibility for GO ... but I guess Presto hasn't been moved.

It's the only provision of the Metrolinx Act that hasn't yet been proclaimed. My guess is that they are waiting for implementation to be done before transferring it.

Okay, I apologise ... your reaction just seemed ... well almost defensive.

Well, there is a personal connection there (not going to say more) which you may surmise given some of what I've posted in the past. But I have no problem blaming Metrolinx for things they have messed up (like the RTP). It's just that this isn't one of them, and blame needs to go where it belongs - I think mostly at MTO for the way the project was set up in the first place.

 

[TOareaFan]

There is a lot of arguing here and different points of view over what the problem is and who is to blame...I too have had problems (no point rehashing them here) so have in my wallet a $10 card that may just sit there forever....what is clear to me, though, is that after a long test period of a payment system that is not terribly unique and has lots of systems around the world preceding it and efficient point of purchase payment systems in places like coffee shops (yes my Tim Horton's reference again) and gas stations, Presto/GO/TTC/Metrolynx have managed to mess this up to a level beyond belief.

The frustration level on this board (made up of transport advocates/enthusiasts) is very high.....imagine the general public? Will Presto make people more or less likely to try public transit......I said it earlier, recall the whole thing and get it right and then, and only then, roll it out again.

 

[Mapleson]

No one other than GO was ever expected to install balance checkers, so this has the feel of being a software problem that wasn't caught. That's not surprising; this stuff happens in any complex project. The failure here is that it wasn't caught before being made available to the public.

Seems like poor planning or corner cutting to me that they planned/thought people would only want to check their balance at a GO Station.

As for the software issues and the Tim Horton's comparisons, Tim Horton's didn't accept plastic when this venture started, so it couldn't have been a good model. They had the "breakthrough" of lumpsum payments to avoid microcharges. If you look at other fare card systems around the world, Oyster in London comes most to my mind, they had years of shitty implementation until they got it sorted. Not that I think we need to repeat their efforts, but it seems to be standard policy to rush things out before their really ready then pick up the PR slack for having so many issues.

 

[Mapleson]

As a special incentive to our regular riders, customers can exchange their current GO Adult monthly pass or 10-ride ticket for a PRESTO card and save the $6 card issuance fee.

Simply present your current 10-ride ticket(s) or monthly pass to the Station Attendant at a PRESTO activated GO station and any balance will be transferred to a PRESTO card and the $6 issuance fee will be waived.

For this phase of PRESTO, this time-limited offer will be available as per below:

GO Station Active Date Incentive Offer Date
Burlington May 31, 2010 Monday, May 31 – Sunday, June 27, 2010
Aldershot June 7, 2010 Monday, June 7 -- Sunday, July 4, 2010
Hamilton June 7, 2010 Monday, June 7 -- Sunday, July 4, 2010
Clarkson June 17, 2010 Thursday, June 17 -- Wednesday, July 14, 2010
Port Credit June 24, 2010 Thursday, June 24 -- Wednesday, July 24, 2010
Long Branch Coming soon

Conditions:
Limit of one PRESTO card exchange per customer.
The minimum PRESTO card load is $10. If the value transferred is less than $10, the customer will need to pay the difference.

 

[EnviroTO]

I still don't see what any of this has to do with the TTC. The TTC doesn't manage Presto customer support, it doesn't control the information technology, and it wasn't that interested in the technology from the start. The TTC is happy with Metropass and eventuallly Tap-n-go / PayWave. I'm not sure what benefit Presto even provides over Tap-n-go / PayWave or a pass discounted due to committing to a full month rate. If I am going to do pay-as-you-go then Tap-n-go / PayWave can handle the payment quickly, if I am committed to using transit for the month I can go to the Metropass machine. Neither option requires rolling out a whole new customer service department and re-inventing the wheel to create a payment system. If they wanted to do pay-as-you-go and reward loyalty they could tie into the existing methods that exist to provide dining rewards regardless of the card used through card registration. Presto is the creation of a solution to a problem already solved. A complete waste of time and money by the MTO.

 

[Mapleson]

I still don't see what any of this has to do with the TTC. The TTC doesn't manage Presto customer support, it doesn't control the information technology, and it wasn't that interested in the technology from the start. The TTC is happy with Metropass and eventuallly Tap-n-go / PayWave. I'm not sure what benefit Presto even provides over Tap-n-go / PayWave or a pass discounted due to committing to a full month rate. If I am going to do pay-as-you-go then Tap-n-go / PayWave can handle the payment quickly, if I am committed to using transit for the month I can go to the Metropass machine. Neither option requires rolling out a whole new customer service department and re-inventing the wheel to create a payment system. If they wanted to do pay-as-you-go and reward loyalty they could tie into the existing methods that exist to provide dining rewards regardless of the card used through card registration. Presto is the creation of a solution to a problem already solved. A complete waste of time and money by the MTO.

Presto is a waste if you never travel outside Toronto / TTC boundaries. Presto is supposed to solve the problem of fare integration for those crossing boundaries, one fare system for ten transit systems. They did go about reinventing the wheel, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place.

 

[nfitz]

Presto is a waste if you never travel outside Toronto / TTC boundaries.

Why do you say this? I use GO trains frequently, without leaving 416. Presto will be much more useful than trying to get a 10-ride ticket to validate, in the pouring rain. And if it's already in my pocket, it certainly is more convenient than a token, when I encounter a subway station that will take it.