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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

Here's the signature issue:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/2nos2f/presto_woes/

Anything to add to that Amnesia?

All I have to add is that people will whine about anything, especially here in Toronto. "Oh no, telephone/internet Presto transactions take 24 hours to synchronize throughout the system!!" Ok, so do transit farecard transactions in every other city in the world. They don't endlessly complain about it and pretend that their city is way behind every other one. The only city where you can reload your card instantly without seeing an agent face-to-face is Hong Kong, and that requires (A) a compatible smartphone, and (B) for most compatible smartphones, a card reader that you have to attach to the phone, costs $50 and weighs half a pound.

This comment from that thread sums it up very nicely:
I lost my card, requested a replacement online, they sent me an email. ... New card came in, only had to pay the 6$ replacement, which included postage. So... yeah, I lost my card, not them.

In the event, my card showed up. It could have been re-activated.

Nobody will do this. No bank, no credit card, no farecard system. If a card is reported as lost, they refuse to reactivate it as a safety precaution.
 
Nobody will do this. No bank, no credit card, no farecard system. If a card is reported as lost, they refuse to reactivate it as a safety precaution.

Actually Tangerine (formerly ING) now offers a service that will "pause'"your Tangerine Mastercard if you THINK it may be lost. "Tangerine may, from time to time, offer you the option of pausing your Card and the Credit Card Account temporarily. In that event, while the Card or Credit Card Account remains paused temporarily, Tangerine reserves the right to cancel the Card at any time if it suspects fraud, loss, or theft. If you suspect your Card has been lost or stolen, you must not use the pause feature and instead notify us immediately of the loss, theft, or misuse of the Card."

Not a bad idea but probably an unnecessary frill for Presto - they certainly need to get the cards and readers working properly first.
 
If you suspect your Card has been lost or stolen, you must not use the pause feature and instead notify us immediately of the loss, theft, or misuse of the Card."

That's the catch. The reason why banks do this is to protect themselves and protect you. If I lose my credit card, it has my name on it - someone could probably go on social media and figure out my birthday, where I live, and other info that'll be needed for the security questions. Then they could call in and get the card reactivated.
 
All I have to add is that people will whine about anything, especially here in Toronto. "Oh no, telephone/internet Presto transactions take 24 hours to synchronize throughout the system!!" Ok, so do transit farecard transactions in every other city in the world. They don't endlessly complain about it and pretend that their city is way behind every other one. The only city where you can reload your card instantly without seeing an agent face-to-face is Hong Kong, and that requires (A) a compatible smartphone, and (B) for most compatible smartphones, a card reader that you have to attach to the phone, costs $50 and weighs half a pound.

This comment from that thread sums it up very nicely:




Nobody will do this. No bank, no credit card, no farecard system. If a card is reported as lost, they refuse to reactivate it as a safety precaution.
All very nice, except you didn't answer the question:
Why would they ask you to sign the card if it isn't necessary?
Obfuscate all you like...you still haven't answered the question.
Nobody will do this. No bank, no credit card, no farecard system. If a card is reported as lost, they refuse to reactivate it as a safety precaution.
You miss the point yet again. If the rightful owner surrenders the card, the unique identifier of the card can be assigned to another account.

How do you think it works with door passes at hotels? You place a deposit on it, and get that back when you return it. The unique identifier stays the same, the account and encrypted code for it changes when it's flashed.
 
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Why would they ask you to sign the card if it isn't necessary?

I don't know, and I haven't heard a reputable story of anyone getting into any sort of trouble for it. That's the answer. The Go Train fare inspectors aren't confiscating unsigned cards or fining people for them.

If the rightful owner surrenders the card, the unique identifier of the card can be assigned to another account.

No, they always assign a brand new & unique number to Presto cards.

How do you think it works with door passes at hotels? You place a deposit on it, and get that back when you return it.

(A) I've never placed a deposit on a hotel door key, and (B) the way they work is different since a hotel door key doesn't store any account info. It just gets the info for which door to open and how long to open it stored in the magnetic stripe or RFID chip.
 
I don't know, and I haven't heard a reputable story of anyone getting into any sort of trouble for it. That's the answer. The Go Train fare inspectors aren't confiscating unsigned cards or fining people for them.
I see, just on your say-so. OK. So why have the signature indicated then? You buttress the absurdity further.
No, they always assign a brand new & unique number to Presto cards.
lol...that's the printed number on the card, not the chip.
(A) I've never placed a deposit on a hotel door key, and (B) the way they work is different since a hotel door key doesn't store any account info. It just gets the info for which door to open and how long to open it stored in the magnetic stripe or RFID chip.
I'm continually fascinated at how all reference to worldly matters is via your opinion or experience.

And here I was hoping for you to quote a reference...like this:
http://chrisweber.me/wp-content/upl...mming-and-Cloning-Attacks-on-Presto-Cards.pdf
 
All very nice, except you didn't answer the question:
Why would they ask you to sign the card if it isn't necessary?

I don't know, and I haven't heard a reputable story of anyone getting into any sort of trouble for it. That's the answer. The Go Train fare inspectors aren't confiscating unsigned cards or fining people for them.

You have to sign the card for CRA transit pass tax refund purposes. There is no other reason. Neither Presto nor any local transit agency has a policy requiring the cards be signed, it is just to make things easier when you claim it--I believe the CRA either does, or usually doesn't but sometimes might, ask for a photocopy of the front+back of the card to help prove ownership.

I recall that my very old first-gen vertical-layout Presto card even stated this in small print on the back by the signature panel. My current modern one and UPX one don't. I agree that it might be confusing but I don't see what the possible issue is...people should sign their cards, because they have signature panels; no reason not to do so. However, if one doesn't sign, great, whatever.
 
You have to sign the card for CRA transit pass tax refund purposes. There is no other reason. Neither Presto nor any local transit agency has a policy requiring the cards be signed, it is just to make things easier when you claim it--I believe the CRA either does, or usually doesn't but sometimes might, ask for a photocopy of the front+back of the card to help prove ownership.

I recall that my very old first-gen vertical-layout Presto card even stated this in small print on the back by the signature panel. My current modern one and UPX one don't. I agree that it might be confusing but I don't see what the possible issue is...people should sign their cards, because they have signature panels; no reason not to do so. However, if one doesn't sign, great, whatever.
Yeah, I'd read that on-line while researching it, but do have a fix for signing the cards that otherwise don't want to be signed, and this from the lovely GO agent at the Bloor Station:

I forget the brand name of the felt pens, anyway, the popular fine tip ones, still far too large to get onto the slippery signature strip, but the solvent is able to bond the ink's vehicle to the plastic when you sign over-sized for legibility. Give the ink 20 seconds or so to dry before putting in wallet or pocket. There's been quite a few complaints that she's heard on them not being sign-able with regular pens, ball-point or otherwise.

As to Revenue Canada and Presto getting it wrong:
http://www.thiscrazytrain.com/2015/09/i-warned-presto-of-problem-back-in.html
 
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Yeah, I'd read that on-line while researching it, but do have a fix for signing the cards that otherwise don't want to be signed, and this from the lovely GO agent at the Bloor Station:

I forget the brand name of the felt pens, anyway, the popular fine tip ones, still far too large to get onto the slippery signature strip, but the solvent is able to bond the ink's vehicle to the plastic when you sign over-sized for legibility. Give the ink 20 seconds or so to dry before putting in wallet or pocket. There's been quite a few complaints that she's heard on them not being sign-able with regular pens, ball-point or otherwise.

As to Revenue Canada and Presto getting it wrong:
http://www.thiscrazytrain.com/2015/09/i-warned-presto-of-problem-back-in.html

I have found that a variety of regular ballpoint pens have worked just fine, with no issues either at time of signing or long-term, for the various Presto cards myself and my family have had over the years.

And yes, the signature on the card is the least of someone's problems if they try to claim Presto usage on their taxes. Presto is knowingly defrauding people by advertising that it's tax deductible when, according to the rules, it's not, and they've been advised of it again and again. Amazing this is still an issue so many years in.
 
I have found that a variety of regular ballpoint pens have worked just fine, with no issues either at time of signing or long-term, for the various Presto cards myself and my family have had over the years.
This is a brand new design and issue I've not seen before. It has much larger font on the rear, looks identical on the front though. And it has raised brail that ostensibly allows the visually challenged to insert the card in a reader the right way. (It shouldn't matter, maybe it's just to identify one card from another?)
Any card I've had in the past was easily signed by ball-point, albeit my last one, now I look closely, has the signature strip worn off.
 
lol...that's the printed number on the card, not the chip.

You realize that the two are linked, right? How else can Presto read/reload your card balance using only the printed number?

You have to sign the card for CRA transit pass tax refund purposes. There is no other reason. Neither Presto nor any local transit agency has a policy requiring the cards be signed, it is just to make things easier when you claim it--I believe the CRA either does, or usually doesn't but sometimes might, ask for a photocopy of the front+back of the card to help prove ownership.

They just ask for the transit usage report that you download from the Presto website. One benefit of Presto and similar systems is that you don't lose the tax credit if you lose the card. With a metropass/weekly pass, you do.
 
You realize that the two are linked, right? How else can Presto read/reload your card balance using only the printed number?
Of course I do. Just as the embossed number on your bank card is tied to your bank account number. When you get a replacement bank card, your account number stays the same, the card number changes. I made that point a few posts back. The chip identifier is also unique.

Your cell phone isn't the only way you can be tracked electronically with or without the addition of GPS locating:
[...]An RFID reader transmits an encoded radio signal to interrogate the tag. The RFID tag receives the message and then responds with its identification and other information. This may be only a unique tag serial number, or may be product-related information such as a stock number, lot or batch number, production date, or other specific information. Since tags have individual serial numbers, the RFID system design can discriminate among several tags that might be within the range of the RFID reader and read them simultaneously.
[...]
The next 24 bits are an object class, identifying the kind of product; the last 36 bits are a unique serial number for a particular tag. These last two fields are set by the organization that issued the tag. Rather like a URL, the total electronic product code number can be used as a key into a global database to uniquely identify a particular product.[14]
[...]
The Food and Drug Administration in the United States has approved the use of RFID chips in humans.[44] Some business establishments give customers the option of using an RFID-based tab to pay for service, such as the Baja Beach nightclub in Barcelona.[45] This has provoked concerns into privacy of individuals as they can potentially be tracked wherever they go by an identifier unique to them. Some are concerned this could lead to abuse by an authoritarian government, to removal of freedoms,[46] and to the emergence of an "ultimate panopticon", a society where all citizens behave in a socially accepted manner because others might be watching.[47]

On July 22, 2006, Reuters reported that two hackers, Newitz and Westhues, at a conference in New York City showed that they could clone the RFID signal from a human implanted RFID chip, showing that the chip is not hack-proof as was previously claimed.[48] Privacy advocates have protested against implantable RFID chips, warning of potential abuse. There is much controversy regarding human applications of this technology, and many conspiracy theories abound in relation to human applications, especially one of which is referred to as "The Mark of the Beast" in some religious circles.
[...]
The unique identity is a mandatory requirement for RFID tags, despite special choice of the numbering scheme. RFID tag data capacity is large enough that each individual tag will have a unique code
[...]
If a tagged item is paid for by credit card or in conjunction with use of a loyalty card, then it would be possible to indirectly deduce the identity of the purchaser by reading the globally unique ID of that item (contained in the RFID tag). This is only true if the person doing the watching also had access to the loyalty card data and the credit card data, and the person with the equipment knows where you are going to be.
[...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification

One benefit of Presto and similar systems is that you don't lose the tax credit if you lose the card. With a metropass/weekly pass, you do.
You haven't been reading. I'll let Megaton and others address that comment. If you replace your lost card, it is referenced back to your account unless you open a new one. If you don't replace it, you stand to have your tax claim denied, as a signed card (or copy thereof) must be produced on demand to validate your tax claim for the account balance submitted.

From my source quote above:
[Since tags have individual serial numbers, the RFID system design can discriminate among several tags that might be within the range of the RFID reader and read them simultaneously.]
Presto does this, had it happen carrying both my stopped card and the new one two days back. Both were in my wallet. I'd forgotten to discard the old one. Reader first flashed red, then a fraction of a second later, it flashed green. It had successfully read both cards correctly, and acted logically and as programming instructed. Library checkouts also do this when you pile books and/or DVDs/ CDs on the self-checkout reader.
 
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If you don't replace it, you stand to have your tax claim denied, as a signed card (or copy thereof) must be produced on demand to validate your tax claim for the account balance submitted.

/checks back in on site
/sees more laughably false and error riddled information spewed out by commentors with childish "I'm always right" attitudes
/looks over alternative tax letter happily issued to me on request by PRESTO since a signed card is not needed as is easily confirmed on the CRA website
/leaves
 
Well there Johnny, nice of you to drop by:
/checks back in on site
/sees more laughably false and error riddled information spewed out by commentors with childish "I'm always right" attitudes
/looks over alternative tax letter happily issued to me on request by PRESTO since a signed card is not needed as is easily confirmed on the CRA website
/leaves
You have to sign the card for CRA transit pass tax refund purposes. There is no other reason. Neither Presto nor any local transit agency has a policy requiring the cards be signed, it is just to make things easier when you claim it--I believe the CRA either does, or usually doesn't but sometimes might, ask for a photocopy of the front+back of the card to help prove ownership.

I recall that my very old first-gen vertical-layout Presto card even stated this in small print on the back by the signature panel. My current modern one and UPX one don't. I agree that it might be confusing but I don't see what the possible issue is...people should sign their cards, because they have signature panels; no reason not to do so. However, if one doesn't sign, great, whatever.
 
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