Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[TransitBart]

How does providing a system to make the gates work end cash fares? If someone walks to a stop with 4 loonies, they'll be able to board a train or a tram or a bus.

If paying via a machine eliminates the cash fare, then banks eliminated cash decades ago by introducing ATMs.

To what ShonTron said, my experience is that you have to buy a single fare ticket at a station from a human being or machine, or at a stop at an automated vending machine or on some vehicles from a vending machine. The machines spit tickets and the systems are generally POP. The ticket being your proof.

I can't think of anywhere where you dump a fistful of cash into a hopper like Toronto.

 

[rbt]

To what ShonTron said, my experience is that you have to buy a single fare ticket at a station from a human being or machine, or at a stop at an automated vending machine or on some vehicles from a vending machine. The machines spit tickets and the systems are generally POP. The ticket being your proof.

I can't think of anywhere where you dump a fistful of cash into a hopper like Toronto.

New York? Dump in quarters (or $1 bills), get a magstripe card as a transfer (to other bus routes only IIRC). Only difference is they have an automated cash counter rather than something manual; the driver (last time I was there) pressed a button to dispense the card and secure the money after the cash counter went bing for hitting the fare level.

Barrie Transit and Ottawa both have automated cash counter hoppers and print paper tickets from as separate device; not hard to change the transfer printer to a single-use NFC card dispenser instead.

More directly, Amsterdam does exactly what I mention. Pay driver of a tram with cash and you get a single-use NFC card. Fares paid onboard the tram are about 60 cents more than fares from a vending machine IIRC.

GO isn't too far off either. Did you know you can top-up your Presto card via the bus driver. You can also purchase a new card from them too at roadside stops (stations are too busy). I bet once the single-use cards are available drivers will cease printing paper transfers and will start handing them out instead.

 

[TransitBart]

I can't think of anywhere where you dump a fistful of cash into a hopper like Toronto.

I ought to have been more clear. I suppose for some reason, I think that Europe has more sophisticated transit infrastructure in place. I can't think of anywhere there that I have ever paid on a vehicle which is why I wrote what I did above.

 

[crs1026]

Pay-cash-as-you-board is certainly alive and well on major transit systems all over the world. Quite a few aren't even automated, a variety of fares may be available and the driver figures out what you owe and makes change.

The question is - what is optimal for the GTA given that more and more people carry more and more non-cash media, and given that it costs money to secure, handle, and count all that cash. At some point, x ticket machines at select stops or locations becomes cheaper than y fareboxes on every bus, especially if y>x.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the vending machines, when you (tourist?) pays cash for the fare, the proof-of-payment (transfer) will only be issued when the correct cash fare is deposited. Those who presently deposit a handful of nickels will have to deposit the correct amount, instead of short changing.

 

[Napoleon]

Not sure where to put this but ....

Does Metrolinx ever plan to add more Presto Readers to Exhibition GO Station? Currently, the situation during crowded events is ridiculous. There are two in front of the stairs to the underpass, and another kind of off to the side of the stairs. Right now, you end up with queues of people tapping the just one or two readers.

I've noticed this is incredibly awkward if you're exiting towards Liberty Village. You have to go back inside the station a bit to tap off and then continue on your way. There's no Presto reader en route to the exit from the train. Very inconvenient.

 

[DSC]

Not sure where to put this but ....

Does Metrolinx ever plan to add more Presto Readers to Exhibition GO Station? Currently, the situation during crowded events is ridiculous. There are two in front of the stairs to the underpass, and another kind of off to the side of the stairs. Right now, you end up with queues of people tapping the just one or two readers.

The easiest way to find out would be to ask Metrolinx directly. Try AnneMarie.Aikins@metrolinx.com

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I've noticed this is incredibly awkward if you're exiting towards Liberty Village. You have to go back inside the station a bit to tap off and then continue on your way. There's no Presto reader en route to the exit from the train. Very inconvenient.

I would guess that is only temporary due to the construction going on right now.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I imagine once the new tunnel entrance on the north side opens (when that is only god knows) the situation will be better, yes. Once the extra track is in I bet that the trains will be stopping at the middle platform most of the time anyway and you will need to use the tunnel regardless.

 

[P23]

Is there a thread for fare gate installation? Couldn't find one. In any case, new gates are installed at Lansdowne, they look almost ready for operation.

 

[Megaton327]

If anyone remembers, myself and others here have posted about a significant problem with Presto on the TTC, which I experienced for the first time in November 2014 on the first day it was deployed to the LFLRVs and others have confirmed is still an issue recently: if you tap your card twice on the same physical vehicle within two hours, it will say 'declined' and not allow you to pay your fare at all, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Someone on twitter https://twitter.com/kmiecp/status/758674128740216832 has confirmed that this is still an issue--she tapped on the same bus an hour and a half after she'd initially tapped on it for her return trip and was declined. 90 is a short route so it being the same bus is very plausible. I can imagine there would be MANY similar suburban bus routes with few vehicles where it's statistically likely your <2h return tap would be on the same one; 33 is one, and even in the streetcar network 514 is one such candidate.

This problem prevents customers from paying their fares. Presumably if a fare inspector boarded, you'd be ticketed for fare evasion because the TTC decided you aren't allowed to pay your fare.

This is ridiculous. It's been brought up to Brad/TTC/Presto every few months for the past 19 months and they refuse to do ANYTHING about it. I'm rapidly losing faith in the TTC's ability to competently use Presto as their fare payment system.

 

[ShonTron]

If anyone remembers, myself and others here have posted about a significant problem with Presto on the TTC, which I experienced for the first time in November 2014 on the first day it was deployed to the LFLRVs and others have confirmed is still an issue recently: if you tap your card twice on the same physical vehicle within two hours, it will say 'declined' and not allow you to pay your fare at all, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Someone on twitter https://twitter.com/kmiecp/status/758674128740216832 has confirmed that this is still an issue--she tapped on the same bus an hour and a half after she'd initially tapped on it for her return trip and was declined. 90 is a short route so it being the same bus is very plausible. I can imagine there would be MANY similar suburban bus routes with few vehicles where it's statistically likely your <2h return tap would be on the same one; 33 is one, and even in the streetcar network 514 is one such candidate.

This problem prevents customers from paying their fares. Presumably if a fare inspector boarded, you'd be ticketed for fare evasion because the TTC decided you aren't allowed to pay your fare.

This is ridiculous. It's been brought up to Brad/TTC/Presto every few months for the past 19 months and they refuse to do ANYTHING about it. I'm rapidly losing faith in the TTC's ability to competently use Presto as their fare payment system.

Obviously, the answer is 2-hour timed transfers. The problem isn't Presto, the problem is the TTC stubbornly trying to apply a 19th century transfer policy to a 21st century fare card.

It's the same problem with the new Nova buses and bike racks. The TTC now only allows one bike per rack (never mind that Brampton, which has the same model of bus, doesn't do this), rather than figure out another solution, like buying different bike racks. I've been bugging Brad Ross and the TTC about this too.

If LA and Seattle can get racks that fit three bikes, why can't the TTC figure out how to two bikes on a rack?

 

[Kitsune]

I got a return trip for free today :

The Spadina station was actually tapped at Queen / Spadina on a LFLRV that was different then the one I orginally boarded. Although that stop is also currently served by the 501 on its a detour. Did the TTC rejigg this area to prevent double charging?

 

[Megaton327]

Obviously, the answer is 2-hour timed transfers. The problem isn't Presto, the problem is the TTC stubbornly trying to apply a 19th century transfer policy to a 21st century fare card.

The best part is every time anybody raises a Presto related problem with Brad or @ttchelps, they direct you to @prestocard, but then @prestocard replies (correctly) that it is a TTC fare policy that they have no control over, and directs you back to the TTC. They usually end up ignoring you at that point or direct you back to Presto a second time...this has just happened with Brad and @prestocard in reply to this person's tweet (plus mine and a couple of others in response to the ongoing/ignored issue), so let's see if this time is finally different...

 

[amnesiajune]

I got a return trip for free today :

The Spadina station was actually tapped at Queen / Spadina on a LFLRV that was different then the one I orginally boarded. Although that stop is also currently served by the 501 on its a detour. Did the TTC rejigg this area to prevent double charging?

That's happened to me a few times. By accident at first but now I'll do it on purpose sometimes. It seems like Presto will let you tap onto as many routes as you want within two hours of the original tap. You only get charged a new fare when you tap onto a route you've already used. So, for example, I went downtown a while back, ate dinner, then got on a streetcar, and was only charged one fare:

But no such luck when I take the subway twice:

Another loophole I've noticed is that transit systems apparently can't double-charge you. At Finch, if you tap the Viva machines and then tap onto a YRT Express bus, you don't get charged the extra fare. I'm curious to see how the TTC is going to handle this issue (or if they'll deal with it at all), since they charge a whole second fare instead of the extra 50 cents