Metrolinx: Other Items (catch all)

[Filip]

Dynamiting Metrolinx just validates using the agencies as scapegoat - there reason why Union Station is the way it isn't because Mlinx is footdragging - it is the province that is hot and cold about funding RER and this particular project.

AoD

AoD - You and I tend to agree a lot on some of these things, but this - this is a major problem.

The Government of Ontario isn't the transit expert - but Metrolinx should have made noise when the Union station rebuild picked up steam to say that platform/track level improvements are a mandatory part of the improvement program. I feel like all this money was spent to build an underground mall when it should have been spent to make the station actually function like a station - and not continue using baggage platforms for passengers.

Could you share some more background about this? I was under the impression that Metrolinx was going through the exercise of through-routing and track consolidation to widen platforms, and this is the first that I've heard about the new columns being a constraint.

I need to ask my sources more questions - especially the difference in weight between the current GO tanks and EMUs. However, the high level is each track is supported by large columns directly beneath. These all have to be aligned or a train risks taking the shortcut to the new mall underneath the station. Obviously consolidating tracks/platforms will mean some tracks will not be above columns; especially if you're trying to maximize space by having a platform - track - track - platform - track - track layout.

It is a massive expense to make that work - one that will likely require more closures of the newly built (or almost newly built) concourses. How do you sell that to the public?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The Government of Ontario isn't the transit expert - but Metrolinx should have made noise when the Union station rebuild picked up steam to say that platform/track level improvements are a mandatory part of the improvement program. I feel like all this money was spent to build an underground mall when it should have been spent to make the station actually function like a station - and not continue using baggage platforms for passengers.

Metrolinx as implemented is a quasi-political (vs. apolitical) body with no independent way to raise funding - it is beholden to provincial influence. In fact, I think that's a feature, not a bug to the government. It isn't like we haven't seen enough instances of politicians (by extension, the government) inserting itself in the process multiple times even though they aren't experts. The money for the underground mall is basically a mix of a public and private (through lease) funding from the three levels of government to build the new concourse and restore the structure - the government didn't decide to, much less pony up enough to fix the tracks/shed problem.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Metrolinx as implemented is a political (vs. apolitical) body with no independent way to raise funding - it is beholden to provincial influence. In fact, I think that's a feature, not a bug. It isn't like we haven't seen enough instances of politicians (by extension, the government) inserting itself in the process multiple times even though they aren't experts. The money for the underground mall is basically a mix of a public and private funding from the three levels of government to build the concourse and restore the structure - the government didn't decide to, much less pony up enough to fix the tracks/shed problem.

AoD

I just cannot believe that a multi-year, multi-billion dollar station improvement program brings almost no tangible improvements to the actual part with trains, notwithstanding that partial glass train shed.

To add insult to injury, that multi-year, multi-billion dollar rebuild will actually make it more expensive and more complicated to provide improvements to the actual portion with trains... You know.. The station part in Union Station.

Mind boggling.

... Symptomatic of that complaint I have about Toronto in general - complacency.

 

[raptor]

Why has the media not picked this one up? sounds like a juicy story

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I just cannot believe that a multi-year, multi-billion dollar station improvement program brings almost no tangible improvements to the actual part with trains, notwithstanding that partial glass train shed.

Mind boggling.

... Symptomatic of that complaint I have about Toronto in general - complacency.

It's less complacency - but lack of long-term vision, planning and execution. It's jumping on one bandwagon after another without a clear idea what the end-goal should be that resulted in this mess. I mean, when did the provincial government get gung ho about this whole RER concept? 2015 or so - Union Station redo started way before that.

Why has the media not picked this one up? sounds like a juicy story

The media hardly have enough expertise, or interest. Dial back a decade or so, and you'd see most have accepted the track arrangement as an acceptable status quo - and judging from how things were at the time, they were acceptable.

AoD

 

[Filip]

It's less complacency - but lack of long-term vision, planning and execution. It's jumping on one bandwagon after another without a clear end-goal that resulted in this mess.

AoD

Complacency as in the tested and tried Toronto 'good enough'.

Yes, an underground mall beneath our station is good enough - screw the part with trains!

 

[Filip]

Why has the media not picked this one up? sounds like a juicy story

They will - why do you think the June Metrolinx Board session was suddenly 'rescheduled' and went in camera

Metrolinx - where Tim Horton's, vending machines and a shopping centre beneath Union is more important than actual transit.

CF should acquire them given their core competencies in retailing.

 

[raptor]

They will - why do you think the June Metrolinx Board session was suddenly 'rescheduled' and went in camera

Metrolinx - where Tim Horton's, vending machines and a shopping centre beneath Union is more important than actual transit.

CF should acquire them given their core competencies in retailing.

Do you have sources? or purely speculation? Also, an item on Union Station enhancements is coming to the Exec committee next week. If you have sources, any chance the topic at hand will be brought up then?

 

[Filip]

Do you have sources? or purely speculation? Also, an item on Union Station enhancements is coming to the Exec committee next week. If you have sources, any chance the topic at hand will be brought up then?

I do have sources, and I'll ask regarding the exec committee.

This is just the most egregious example of Metrolinx incompetence from a long list of it.

 

[raptor]

I do have sources, and I'll ask regarding the exec committee.

This is just the most egregious example of Metrolinx incompetence from a long list of it.

Thanks. I'm surprised nothing has been leaked to the media. Something probably has been, but likely someone doesn't it want it published.

 

[Filip]

Thanks. I'm surprised nothing has been leaked to the media. Something probably has been, but likely someone doesn't it want it published.

I hope this is the canary in the coal mine that will bring some accountability to public agencies.

As a taxpayer, I am incensed at the thought of billions to be spent shortly after billions were already spent to do something that should have been done in the initial 'billions' envelope!

 

[crs1026]

^Rather than ‘optimise’ (ie redesign) the platform spacings, ML needs to simply cover over one or two tracks and see if the broader space and greater number of stairwells can meet passenger loads.

ML did do a study of Union Station a few years ago. That led to proposals for new terminal stations east and west of Union, which does support the suggestion that the station cant handle the ridership.

I wonder how the projected RER ridership versus the design passenger flow (ie the fire code capacity) of the station lines up.

If those two numbers never matched - and ML has been sitting on that fact all along, while spending money on refurbishment - it’s a legitimate planning scandal.

- Paul

 

[Filip]

^Rather than ‘optimise’ (ie redesign) the platform spacings, ML needs to simply cover over one or two tracks and see if the broader space and greater number of stairwells can meet passenger loads.

ML did do a study of Union Station a few years ago. That led to proposals for new terminal stations east and west of Union, which does support the suggestion that the station cant handle the ridership.

I wonder how the projected RER ridership versus the design passenger flow (ie the fire code capacity) of the station lines up.

If those two numbers never matched - and ML has been sitting on that fact all along, while spending money on refurbishment - it’s a legitimate planning scandal.

- Paul

Paul, I just can't get over the fact that they knew the station couldn't handle the ridership and yet CONTINUED to plow money into it for cosmetic improvements.

Usually, in project management, planning circles, when there's a major scope change (RER + associated ridership uplift) you pause the project until you can make sure all the parts associated with it can work. This is literally project management 101.

It makes my blood boil knowing full well how 'stingy' they can be when it suits them.

 

[Streety McCarface]

AoD - You and I tend to agree a lot on some of these things, but this - this is a major problem.

The Government of Ontario isn't the transit expert - but Metrolinx should have made noise when the Union station rebuild picked up steam to say that platform/track level improvements are a mandatory part of the improvement program. I feel like all this money was spent to build an underground mall when it should have been spent to make the station actually function like a station - and not continue using baggage platforms for passengers.



I need to ask my sources more questions - especially the difference in weight between the current GO tanks and EMUs. However, the high level is each track is supported by large columns directly beneath. These all have to be aligned or a train risks taking the shortcut to the new mall underneath the station. Obviously consolidating tracks/platforms will mean some tracks will not be above columns; especially if you're trying to maximize space by having a platform - track - track - platform - track - track layout.

It is a massive expense to make that work - one that will likely require more closures of the newly built (or almost newly built) concourses. How do you sell that to the public?

Where will via platforms remain?

 

[Filip]

Where will via platforms remain?

Given that there's nary room for increased GO service - I'm sure ML would prefer to have VIA anywhere else.