Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[steveintoronto]

This was just tweeted out by Metrolinx and Alstom:

I'm actually having to stop myself from getting too excited. The performance of this "trainset" is quite exmplary, I was digging on if for well over an hour last night. It almost looks too good to fully believe. I am braced for sticker shock though, quality and performance don't come cheap. But then again getting dicked around with the lowest bid (BBD) is hardly value for money.

Top speed on these is over a 100 kph, and they are used as tram-trains in Europe running on RER lines (25kV AC) as well as tram lines (750 V DC).

 

[LNahid2000]

I'm actually having to stop myself from getting too excited. The performance of this "trainset" is quite exmplary, I was digging on if for well over an hour last night. It almost looks too good to fully believe. I am braced for sticker shock though, quality and performance don't come cheap. But then again getting dicked around with the lowest bid (BBD) is hardly value for money.

Top speed on these is over a 100 kph, and they are used as tram-trains in Europe running on RER lines (25kV AC) as well as tram lines (750 V DC).

I rode these in Paris a couple of months ago and what I liked about them most was that they felt way more spacious than the Flexity LRT vehicles which I rode in Brussels on the same trip.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This was just tweeted out by Metrolinx and Alstom:

Good. Metrolinx should have gone with dual suppliers at the onset. Yes you pay more due to lower volumes spread over two suppliers, but you benefit from the two competing for your favour.

 

[Voltz]

I rode these in Paris a couple of months ago and what I liked about them most was that they felt way more spacious than the Flexity LRT vehicles which I rode in Brussels on the same trip.

The Brussels Flexity's are substantially narrower than the model ordered by Metrolinx.

 

[steveintoronto]

I rode these in Paris a couple of months ago and what I liked about them most was that they felt way more spacious than the Flexity LRT vehicles which I rode in Brussels on the same trip.

Serendipity you should mention that, as I was just watching the O-Train vid again, and thinking exactly that, all the time trying to temper my impressions, as renditions can be misleading.

I note also, *it appears* the five car model is the four car one being supplied with just another module added-in. Must run, but will try and ascertain the veracity of that claim with text reference later.

I've been digging to get user impressions from around the world where they've been used, and so far, everyone is as impressed as you are.

In all fairness to BBD, for the TTC ones, they were a problematic challenge. For the Metrolinx ones, they have no excuse. One of the lessons to be learned from this is *off the shelf* is the way to procure items like these, and from a company that can produce those parts exactly as spec'd. Alstom is going to be incentivized to get this right, and make sure to handle any glitches as they arise, and do it quickly.

 

[Voltz]

Since Metrolinx said in an article about this that they won't be cancelling the Bombardier order, they currently have a surplus of about a hundred LRV's on order, since Hamilton's LRT won't be able to absorb the cars ordered for the cancelled Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's and there is no sign of funding anytime soon for any other lines.

As well I would say there is at least a 50/50 chance of Hamilton or Finch not surviving the next election.

This seems like it will end up in some big cancellation penalty mess, or having to store unneeded vehicles for quite a long time.

 

[gweed123]

In all fairness to BBD, for the TTC ones, they were a problematic challenge. For the Metrolinx ones, they have no excuse. One of the lessons to be learned from this is *off the shelf* is the way to procure items like these, and from a company that can produce those parts exactly as spec'd. Alstom is going to be incentivized to get this right, and make sure to handle any glitches as they arise, and do it quickly.

If Alstom does get this right and Bombardier continues to fumble, this could be a huge win for them, as the current wave of LRT expansion in Ontario probably won't be the last, and a good performance here would put them at the top of the list for the next round of lines, not to mention for potential RER vehicles.

 

[gweed123]

Since Metrolinx said in an article about this that they won't be cancelling the Bombardier order, they currently have a surplus of about a hundred LRV's on order, since Hamilton's LRT won't be able to absorb the cars ordered for the cancelled Sheppard and Scarborough LRT's and there is no sign of funding anytime soon for any other lines.

As well I would say there is at least a 50/50 chance of Hamilton or Finch not surviving the next election.

This seems like it will end up in some big cancellation penalty mess, or having to store unneeded vehicles for quite a long time.

iON Phase II, Eglinton East, Eglinton West, O-Train Phase II. Don't think there will be any shortage of projects for these vehicles to be shifted to.

 

[TOareaFan]

quick question for those that know way more about this stuff than I do (ie. just about everyone on this board):

if they end up using these large vehicles on the Crosstown......they are saying they can move the same number of passengers with what looks like significantly less vehicles....that sounds good but is that not just another way of saying "frequencies will drop and gaps between trains will grow".....and if frequencies are an important driver of usage....what impact does that have on the business model/acceptance/usage of the Crosstown?

 

[LNahid2000]

quick question for those that know way more about this stuff than I do (ie. just about everyone on this board):

if they end up using these large vehicles on the Crosstown......they are saying they can move the same number of passengers with what looks like significantly less vehicles....that sounds good but is that not just another way of saying "frequencies will drop and gaps between trains will grow".....and if frequencies are an important driver of usage....what impact does that have on the business model/acceptance/usage of the Crosstown?

The Alstom cars are just longer (48m instead of 30m) so they need less of them. Instead of running trains in sets of 3, they'll run them in sets of 2 which won't change frequencies by much.

 

[steveintoronto]

The Alstom cars are just longer (48m instead of 30m) so they need less of them. Instead of running trains in sets of 3, they'll run them in sets of 2 which won't change frequencies by much.

That's the short answer, but beware, but as we're seeing with some posters playing ideological jingoism with this, some in the press will be doing same.

The answer is conditional on a number of factors, and *in some circumstances* frequency will be affected. This comes up with discussing through-put equivalence with shorter but more frequent subway trains, and Steve Munro has highlighted this with a lot of claims being made fast and loose about the YUS, DRL and other lines.

But with reduced frequency, there's another offset: It deflates the tendency for 'bunching', so scheduled arrival is much easier to keep, other factors permitting. We can and should have a good discussion on this, but ideology must be kept out of it to get rational answers.

 

[Allandale25]

A few more updates:

Ben Spurr @BenSpurr Replying to @c_9 @TOareaFan This would be going from 76 Bombardier vehicles to 44 Alstom. Stations are apparently fine but maintenance/storage facility would have to be modified to fit Alstom cars.

 

[mdrejhon]

iON Phase II, Eglinton East, Eglinton West, O-Train Phase II. Don't think there will be any shortage of projects for these vehicles to be shifted to.

Several projects are currently discussed behind the scenes at various elements:
- Finch extension to airport
- Hamilton A-Line LRT
- Resurrection of Jane LRT
- Hurontario extension to Brampton (and beyond)
- Increase of frequencies on all existing LRT projects
(e.g. Increase of Hamilton LRT B-Line frequency to 4-minute instead of 6-minute -- this is in one of the PDFs -- we haven't chosen our frequency yet).

With the A-Line BRT now cancelled in favour of the B-Line LRT extension -- using an LRT for A-Line is now back on the table for Hamilton.

Regardless, I like dual-supplier. Risk is spread and proper competition can help increase quality and reduce costs. Also, this is a warning shot to Bombardier.

I think, eventually, we're going to need all the vehicles even with 50% of the projects cancelled-and-reinstated. Look at what happened to Ottawa. Cancelled, then now under construction THEN massively expanded before construction complete. The same thing is going to happen to Hamilton even if ours is cancelled, it will be quickly resurrected 2022/2026 possibly as a bigger system.

I say this because the population in Hamilton is quite damn passionate in seeing LRT happen. (our public LRT rally had several hundred people -- was Ontario's biggest ever on an LRT -- bigger than the 2011 Save-Transit-City rally, bigger than 2010 ION LRT rally, bigger than Scarborough rally... IIRC, the Hamilton LRT rally might have been even bigger than the save-the-streetcars rally in the early 1970s!) It was rather surprising, even to me, as an LRT advocate that a little city less than a tenth the size of Toronto, pulled off a public LRT rally bigger than Toronto's biggest.

 

[Allandale25]

And BBD has responded (don't shoot the messenger):

 

[Allandale25]

Several projects are currently discussed behind the scenes at various elements:
- Hurontario extension to Brampton (and beyond)

Just to be clear, the Hurontario LRT already goes to Brampton. It terminates at Steeles Avenue in Brampton. Brampton Council launched their own EA to study two alternative routes to the Main Street portion of the former Steeles to Brampton GO Station portion of the Hurontario-Main LRT line. Whether or not a future Brampton Council would pick one of these routes and get funding, and how it would interface with the Hurontario LRT at Steeles is an open and speculative issue.