Admiral Beez
Superstar
Bombardier is making our streetcars and the Eglinton crosstown trams. I assume this is some local content rule by the province, but then why was the UPE built in Japan?
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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
nfitz
Superstar
Presumably, one can get a waiver if there's no Canadian manufacturing of a particular class of vehicle, such as Tier 4 DMUs, or double-decker buses.
Though GO's double-decker buses have lead to the company (Alexander Dennis) who manufacturers them, coming to Canada and setting up a production facility here.
cplchanb
Senior Member
Well....apart from Van Hool which does not offer (i think...) their double decker here....AD is the sole manufacturer in the western world that makes it.
as for the UPX trains....maybe they undercut BBR....then again I dont think the NA division even has an equivalent too (correct me again if im wrong....)
so basically they won because of default, not because of actual CC points or waivers...etc
as for the UPX trains....maybe they undercut BBR....then again I dont think the NA division even has an equivalent too (correct me again if im wrong....)
so basically they won because of default, not because of actual CC points or waivers...etc
smallspy
Senior Member
Digging around in the back of my memory banks this morning....
The streetcar test loop is actually standard gauge, not TTC gauge. 4900 was built and tested at Milhaven, and then had its wheels pressed out to TTC gauge upon delivery to the TTC in 1982.
Of course, this then raises the question about where/how they tested the production ALRVs, as the majority of them were built at Milhaven.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
The streetcar test loop is actually standard gauge, not TTC gauge. 4900 was built and tested at Milhaven, and then had its wheels pressed out to TTC gauge upon delivery to the TTC in 1982.
Of course, this then raises the question about where/how they tested the production ALRVs, as the majority of them were built at Milhaven.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
D
Duck
Guest
So is the Freedom being tested on the "S-shaped" track? That's not very long.
smallspy
Senior Member
That's just one section of the track. It is quite a bit longer than that.
Not to mention but the curves on the S-shaped section were minimum-radius for a C or ALRV, and thus waaaaay too tight for a Flexity Freedom.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
BBR had to design custom streetcars for Toronto. Why would the lack of an off the shelf design at BBR be a barrier for Canadian content demands on the UPX?
nfitz
Superstar
Surely there are different options for an order worth $1 billion (before extras) compared to one worth $53 million (before extras).
crs1026
Superstar
UPX was a special case - a very small order, with the economics favourable only by piggybacking onto an order from another buyer. The amount of Canadian content for this order wasn't worth pursuing, and the price differential was likely significant.
- Paul
dowlingm
Senior Member
- The frame was built in Japan, the engines and other assembly was done in Illinois. Metrolinx did a deal with SMART to buy 12 of their fixed price options, and then a further 6. By comparison, the Flexity downtown order was 204 and with the Metrolinx orders/options was slated to be double that.
- Nippon Sharyo were already gearing up so promising to deliver the units ahead of the Pan Am Games was doable for them. (In fact we got all our cars before SMART got any as they are still building their track)
- The other aspect is that as it had to run on FRA lines and not light rail/metro, Nippon Sharyo's design had to be FRA and Tier 4 certified anyway for SMART. Any other manufacturer would have had to do that testing just for Toronto. This isn't a small issue - apparently the Nippon Sharyo design for double deck intercity cars for Illinois, Michigan, California etc. hit a snag when the test unit failed a buff strength test, so that will kick their delivery schedule back some.
D
Duck
Guest
I really wish either Metrolinx or the Region of Waterloo would get us some construction photos of the first prototype train coming together.
D
Duck
Guest
How can we get Metrolinx or Bombardier to share some pics? Does anyone (Dan?) have connections?
nfitz
Superstar
I'd think dropping the lawsuits against them might help.
D
Duck
Guest
Two separate contracts. I'm talking about Flexity Freedom, the Metrolinx/ion order, not the TTC's Flexity Outlook order.
nfitz
Superstar
It's not two separate contracts; they are linked.
The 182 Metrolinx vehicles are part of the 400 vehicle option on the original TTC contract of 204 vehicles; 300 of which (IIRC) were transferred to Metrolinx. Metrolinx then transferred 28 of the remaining 118 to Waterloo, and they ordered 14, retaining an option for 14 more (this leaves TTC with an option of 100 vehicles, Metrolinx with an option of 90, and Waterloo with 14 - interestingly meaning that the original order of 204 + option of 400 has now become 400 + option of 204).
While there are multiple contracts, they aren't separate contracts. As the Metrolinx pricing is all based on the TTC order of 204 vehicles, then if TTC were to terminate BBDs contract for non-performance, then BBD would have cause to renegotiate the pricing with Metrolinx and Waterloo.
If TTC can acquire evidence that BBD continues to make false claims about the progress of Metrolinx and Waterloo orders, this could be used to support their claim for additional damages beyond the $50 million limit specified in their contract with BBD. As such, I suspect no photos will be allowed of the BBD assemblage in action.