Mayor John Tory's Toronto

[steveintoronto]

There really isn't much I don't like about this![...]
Now.....can he get it through council?

It's interesting, and I too never thought I'd see Tory announce this, albeit there really wasn't much choice pragmatically, but if Council doesn't back this, he can stand tall and claim (correctly) "I wanted it, they didn't"...and win the next election.

Wow...

 

[ttk77]

From my post in the Transit Funding Sources thread:


There really isn't much I don't like about this!

If all is announced as suggested:

- Road Tolls are a go
- No fire sale of Hydro or Green P
- One-time capital infusion into Hydro, allowing an increased dividend
- Modest hotel/short-term rental tax.

Looks really solid.

Now.....can he get it through council?

Can he get it through executive?

Questions, questions.

As AOD Noted, there is also a Globe and Mail article on this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...s-on-dvp-gardiner-expressway/article33012398/

Given Wynne's recent mistake admission around hydro prices I wonder if he faced any pressure from the province to back down on the Hydro sale.

 

[WislaHD]

I'm with you Vid. Some of the blogs on-line are predicated on a false premise, or at least mostly: That with de-amalgamation, transit funding will return to the source constituents. It must be remembered that the TTC became the domain (albeit with zone fares still intact) of the Metro level of government.

The benefit for Toronto (as in ex-Toronto) is that Council will be far more homogeneous, elect a mayor who represents the core, and then *ostensibly* do as regional government is done in Ontario, and I favour an appointed regional head and members from the constituent municipalities. It sounds undemocratic, but is far more stable and able to push past gridlock:
[...]
What about Regional Councils?
The head of a regional council is called a Regional Chair. The chair is chosen by a vote of the members of regional council or directly elected.

Other members of regional council are selected in various ways. Some are elected directly by the voters to sit on regional council. Some are elected to sit on both the regional council and the local municipal council. In some municipalities, members of local municipal councils are appointed by their councils to serve at the regional level. The head of council of a local municipality is a member of the regional council.
[...]
https://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-Content/Municipal-101/How-Municipal-Government-Works.aspx

I hope to get Wisla back into this string, been bouncing some good ideas off of each other. He might have another view on that. So, transit, where does it sit in the various levels of government if we de-amalgamate? And what level of Region do we wish to attain? I see equal pros and cons for a mega-Region v. just a Metro Region. And transit being delivered at the regional level, super region or not. If super region, then Queen's Park divests the role to that level.

To be continued...

Hah unfortunately I can't keep up with all the UT threads around exam period.

I have been playing around with google maps, what a regional council might look like. 6 districts : Downtown, Midtown, North York, East York, Scarborough and Etobicoke. I changed around the traditional Scarboroug border west to the DVP north of Eglinton, and extending East York into Birchmount south of Eglinton.

I think this practice is an attempt to see what better way to form municipal government in the amalgamated city of Toronto. Basically a move back to a metro-Toronto form of government without de-amalgamating. So TTC would still be the operating transit agency for the 416.

The biggest problem with having Metrolinx operate transit in the 416, is that they won't care about providing a local TTC bus route through Leaside, or many of the other low-density neighbourhoods that the TTC operates buses in. With no municipal government and municipal voters to be accountable to, Metrolinx can trash them in an effort to save money or whenever some PC government gets elected provincially.

 

[steveintoronto]

Hah unfortunately I can't keep up with all the UT threads around exam period.

Going to pore over that map some more later. My immediate impression is that East York and Midtown would want to be part of the new City of TO, but that's obviously open for discussion. Let me invert my way of looking at that: We can safely assume (most of) North York, Etobicoke and Scarborough, as described by their old borders, want out. Whether they'd care to unify in some structure or attach to bordering ones outside the present TO limits is open to discussion.

I hadn't thought of this as follows, but it raises a whole new line of discussion:

So TTC would still be the operating transit agency for the 416.

The biggest problem with having Metrolinx operate transit in the 416, is that they won't care about providing a local TTC bus route through Leaside, or many of the other low-density neighbourhoods that the TTC operates buses in. With no municipal government and municipal voters to be accountable to, Metrolinx can trash them in an effort to save money or whenever some PC government gets elected provincially.

A large part of the rationale of de-amalgamating is (for core Torontonians) "subways to nowhere".

Just a preliminary thought on this, and this has been proposed a number of times before: a 'new' smaller City of Toronto is divested of the subway system, along with the LRTs (which are Metrolinx owned, TTC operated) and that is operated (ostensibly) by Metrolinx in some manner along with adjacent municipal trans-regional systems. The 'new' TTC is for delivering local service, which would still include streetcars, and of course, the 'local' touch, as you allude to.

More on this later, some thoughts might change as I delve deeper into this. Great map btw!

 

[WislaHD]

Going to pore over that map some more later. My immediate impression is that East York and Midtown would want to be part of the new City of TO, but that's obviously open for discussion. Let me invert my way of looking at that: We can safely assume (most of) North York, Etobicoke and Scarborough, as described by their old borders, want out. Whether they'd care to unify in some structure or attach to bordering ones outside the present TO limits is open to discussion.

I wasn't clear enough. I was envisioning a return to the Metro Toronto form of government, but with new borders.

But since you mention it, that is how Melbourne and Sydney operate. I believe the City of Sydney is only around a 100,000 population because it encompasses just their CBD. In those jurisdictions, transit planning is done entirely at the state-level.

 

[bobbob911]

The problem is not "can he get this through council" - I assume he spent significant political capital behind the scenes to whip enough conservatives on council.

The problem is how structurally stable this will be - will it be resistant to reversal come next election? I have my doubts, and then we are back to square one again.

 

[steveintoronto]

But since you mention it, that is how Melbourne and Sydney operate. I believe the City of Sydney is only around a 100,000 population because it encompasses just their CBD. In those jurisdictions, transit planning is done entirely at the state-level.

Serendipity! I was going to mention both those examples in another string as they are (at least in part) *privately operated*! (I believe the vehicles are privately owned, track is municipal, and there's a concession arrangement). Melbourne's tram system is superlative.

There's certainly fodder for learning from their example.

Edit to Add: Some reference and clarification for my claims and for other readers to ponder: (Melbourne has the largest tram system in the world)

[...]
Victoria's public transport system was reorganised in 1983 and saw the Melbourne & Metropolitan Tramways Board dissolved into the Metropolitan Transit Authority, which was in turn absorbed by the Public Transport Corporation in 1989. The network has been operated under contract since the commencement of franchising, following the privatisation of the Public Transport Corporation in 1999. The current private operator contracted to run Melbourne's tram system is Keolis Downer, trading as Yarra Trams.

Ticketing, public information and patronage promotion are undertaken by Victoria's public transport body, Public Transport Victoria. The multi-modal integrated ticketing system, myki, currently operates across the tram network. At some Melbourne intersections, motor vehicles are required to perform a hook turn, a manoeuvre designed to give trams priority.[6] To further improve tram speeds on congested Melbourne streets, trams also have priority in road usage, with specially fitted traffic lights and exclusive lanes being provided either at all times or in peak times, as well as other measures.[7][8] Since January 2015 trams inside the central business district have been free.[9] [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_Melbourne

On consideration, let's flip the de-amalgamation over: Would a lot of the pressure to de-amalgamate be relieved if the TTC did just become local bus and streetcar service and heavy transit (LRTs, Subways, and Commuter Rail) are handled at the provincial or super-regional level?

 

[WislaHD]

The problem is how structurally stable this will be - will it be resistant to reversal come next election? I have my doubts, and then we are back to square one again.

No centrist or leftist candidate will campaign on removing road tolls. No right wing candidate will steal the election from under Tory's nose.

Tory will get re-elected, and after 6 years, road tolls will be normalized.

My question is what will Queen's Park do about it? If it is the 905 making an uproar about having to pay tolls, I wouldn't be surprised to see Patrick Brown making a big stink over it.

 

[bobbob911]

No centrist or leftist candidate will campaign on removing road tolls. No right wing candidate will steal the election from under Tory's nose.

In a Post-Trump world, if you don't think Doug Ford has a strong chance to be elected Mayor running against this you need to be more worried.

My question is what will Queen's Park do about it? If it is the 905 making an uproar about having to pay tolls, I wouldn't be surprised to see Patrick Brown making a big stink over it.

Queen's Park will be *thrilled* by this. Every dollar Toronto raises that can be blamed on the Municipal government is one less dollar the Province needs to be worried about. Quite frankly, I don't know why we don't think the Province wouldn't approve a Sales/Payroll tax as well.

 

[WislaHD]

In a Post-Trump world, if you don't think Doug Ford has a strong chance to be elected Mayor running against this you need to be more worried.

We already went through that era. People have short memories but not that short. All the polls have shown that Dougy would struggle to break 20% if he ran again.

The big difference between today and 2010 is that John Tory is both an incumbent (that is perceived to be doing a good job), and has assembled a large coalition of largely loyal voters.

Queen's Park will be *thrilled* by this. Every dollar Toronto raises that can be blamed on the Municipal government is one less dollar the Province needs to be worried about. Quite frankly, I don't know why we don't think the Province wouldn't approve a Sales/Payroll tax as well.

Good point. We should have been asking QP for a sales tax yesterday.

 

[bobbob911]

We already went through that era. People have short memories but not that short. All the polls have shown that Dougy would struggle to break 20% if he ran again.

I wish I was as confident as you, but after Nov 8th my world view is substantially altered.

 

[WislaHD]

I wish I was as confident as you, but after Nov 8th my world view is substantially altered.

Don't get me wrong, a lot can change between now and October 2018.

But as thing stand today, I don't think this will hurt Tory's base, which is Midtown Toronto, not the suburbs. It helps him with downtown and North York (who also largely voted for Tory), and only hurts him with parts of the suburbs that might have voted for Ford in 2014 anyway.

Combined with incumbent advantage and an otherwise high approval rating, Tory still has a grand voter coalition supporting him.

Plus Tory's team controls the narrative here, we will watch the coming days as he spins this as taxing 905ers who use Toronto infrastructure, and how this will be used to fund things like the Gardiner rebuilt (remember that gift to automobile-first lobby?) and transit infrastructure.

 

[bobbob911]

It should be spun as a "congestion charge" ie. the expectation will be fewer cars on the road and less rush hour traffic for those who pony up.

 

[W. K. Lis]

For the full speech on

Mayor Tory’s remarks to the Toronto Region Board of Trade - Time TO Build

Mayor Tory’s remarks to the Toronto Region Board of Trade - Time TO Build - November 24, 2016

Click on this link.

...
I believe that road tolls fit all four of these criteria.

A road toll on the DVP and Gardiner Expressway of just $2 would raise the City of Toronto more than $200 million every year.

To achieve an equivalent amount from property taxpayers would involve an increase somewhere between 5 to 10 per cent.

Tolls are paid in cities around the world, places many of us have visited.

On the Gardiner and DVP, these tolls would be paid by those who drive in and out of our city as well as by our local 416 residents, sharing the burden among everyone who uses these city owned and financed roads.

Tolls have been shown to reduce travel times and ease congestion. And they also encourage more people to take transit.

The introduction of tolls in Toronto would happen just as our regional GO network and SmartTrack system expand and our local transit options accelerate – so that people will have a much broader range of transit options.

And the money raised through tolls would be directly invested in unfunded capital projects, starting with the expansion of our transit network.

Together with a half per cent levy on property taxes I announced last year, this money would be held in a separate infrastructure fund and not be a part of the City’s overall operating budget – so people have no doubt as to how it is being invested...

...
It would see us toll the Gardiner and DVP and dedicate every single penny raised to build transit and fix our roads, and by doing so make a real difference on unacceptable traffic conditions and overcrowded transit...

 

[freshcutgrass]

I was envisioning a return to the Metro Toronto form of government, but with new borders.

But since you mention it, that is how Melbourne and Sydney operate. I believe the City of Sydney is only around a 100,000 population because it encompasses just their CBD. In those jurisdictions, transit planning is done entirely at the state-level.

Which version of Metro? It was a continuously changing entity from 1953-1998 (with 3/4 of the services handled by the upper tier by 1998).

Sydney doesn't have a municipal government...that's why it is a vastly sprawled, poorly planned city. That mostly powerless little local government area of the Sydney CBD is not a model for Toronto I would want. Metro was the opposite...a two-tiered municipal government, within a provincial government for what was essentially 3 tiers of government, not counting the federal level, which up until recently, had nothing to do with "cities".