picard102
Senior Member
Black and white thinking like that gives us the Ford brothers in office.
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Mayor John Tory's Toronto
- Thread starter MetroMan
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Black and white thinking like that gives us the Ford brothers in office.
concrete_and_light
Active Member
I don't think it's overly black and white to not want the most disrespectful and cruel councillor in the city (who also fundamentally has bad politics and who doesn't work constructively with others) to be our deputy mayor. It's insulting to the city and many of the city's residents who DMW routinely disrespects and works against in a mean-spirited and extraordinarily backwards-looking fashion. And it goes against everything our society and our leaders should stand for.
There would be plenty of people I would disagree with politically who I would not see as fundamentally inappropriate choices for deputy mayor, and as @DSC says, a committee chair is one thing as a peace-making gesture, but deputy mayor is another.
And if we have to capitulate to the cruelest among us and give them (two!) deputy mayor roles in order to keep them pacified then god help us and I reject this kind of compromise-first politics. That's fighting a defensive rear-guard action. I also question whether the average Ford Nation voter gives a crap or even knows at all about the appointments of DMW or Holyday. They're probably still going to vote for or against Tory regardless. DMW and Holyday are just small-time councillors who manage to win their own wards, not city-wide popular figures.
We need to build positive political movements with ethical standards that also reach out and speak to the real concerns of Torontonians, not be always meekly defending a status quo that isn't nearly good enough. That kind of hollowed-out governance, where the city doesn't actually serve its residents in an honest and proactive way, is exactly the kind of situation that allows the appeal of a "blow it all up" Ford-style candidate to thrive.
I don't think we should try to appeal to those who might vote for a Ford-like candidate by letting the wolves in the door and compromising on what needs to be done in order to tackle the city's crises. Thats a political dead-end to me. Instead our leaders should seriously and meaningfully try to address the many real issues this city faces and build support through that from Ford voters all the way to those on the left. Some frank seriousness about the challenges our city faces would be very welcome at this point and if any of our leaders have the courage to speak it I think there is a broad political coalition that could be built. And I think you need to have at some level some fundamental bedrock principles in order to build a sustainable movement on.
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Northern Light
Superstar
In another thread..... @ChesterCopperpot reminded me that the Graphic Matt show was on the Twitterverse.
So I start scrolling............and I come across one of the signs of the apocalypse.
Councillor Holyday wants a vote something progressive! It passed! LOL; of course, with him opposed...........of course...........
So I start scrolling............and I come across one of the signs of the apocalypse.
Councillor Holyday wants a vote something progressive! It passed! LOL; of course, with him opposed...........of course...........
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
Stephen Holyday votes "NO"? Not a surprise, but wanting a vote on it is.
picard102
Senior Member
But that's your opinion. He's an elected member of council, and while you and others may not like him or his politics, that doesn't mean he should be disqualified from being a Deputy Mayor. Tory is working in reality, not a fiction where Ford nation is re-educated into being on side with your beliefs through frank discussions. They, like you, have their ideas about what's best for the city set already.
DSC
Superstar
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I do not think either I or @concrete_and_light ] suggested that Denzil M-W should be disqualified from being a possible DM. I think that both of us were clear that it reflects badly on Tory for appointing him to this (potentially important) role as he really is on the far right of Councillors and maybe appointing one who is more centrist would have been a MUCH better idea.
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picard102
Senior Member
tiffer24
Senior Member
I guess the same logic could apply to closing down parks to the general public...
concrete_and_light
Active Member
I feel like you're cherry picking things from my post and not really addressing my general point. That part that you quoted was an aside, literally in parenthesis, in my larger argument and in the paragraph immediately afterwards I said specifically: "There would be plenty of people I would disagree with politically who I would not see as fundamentally inappropriate choices for deputy mayor". There are other issues besides simple political disagreement with regards to DMW that are the main part of my argument. Also in that parenthesis that you picked out one part of to reply to was also my point that he doesn't work constructively with others. And my main issue is his general hostile, disrespectful, cruel approach to being a city leader. As for the stuff you're saying about Ford nation voters and appeasing them as political calculus, I also addressed that in a few different ways (and I still question whether Ford Nation voters care about or have any clue who DMW is or that he's deputy mayor at all), but you're not really engaging with those aspects of what I said either.
EDIT: I'm also very curious — are you mirror universe Picard? A Picard that cynically compromises in advance and associates and curries favour with the worst most reactionary and disrespectful and cruel among us in order to win? Your namesake is a very odd inspiration given the approaches to the world you seem to favour.
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DSC
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As a Councillor he should certainly be eligible (but so should Mammoliti!!). However, I do not think he (or, god forbid, Mammo) should have been appointed Deputy Mayor as he is much to right-wing and divisive.
afransen
Senior Member
Maybe the idea is just to dull DMW and Holyday criticism of Tory. It is awkward to criticize him while acting as his deputy mayor. So he is covering his right flank but governing as a centrist.
daniel_kryz
Active Member
Now that actually might be a good explanation. Either DMW or Holyday could try to become Rob Ford 2.0, and that would be bad for Tory and even worse for our city. Putting them in these relatively ceremonial positions could help stop divisive populism from making a comeback to City Hall. Although, I do think that it's time to have a new mayor. Tory seems like a nice guy, but he hasn't been great at his job from both a policy standpoint (imo) ... and just look at his track record with his key promises.
Soop
Active Member
But then he was the only councillor to vote against sidewalk snow removal downtown. A case of I've got mine and screw the rest of you.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Should be remembered that John Tory was the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party in Ontario, September 28, 2004 – March 20, 2009. So more centre-right, but as a right as Rob or Doug Ford.
daniel_kryz
Active Member
Yeah, he was a centrist and even wanted to abolish public funding for Catholic schools... which seems like a common-sense idea, but was a major reason he didn't win. I mean, why should we fund one specific religion's school? Last I checked, Canada didn't have a designated religion.