London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[ssiguy2]

London is, after Toronto, the most ideal place in Ontario for a commuter rail service.

London is a hub of railway lines and has more than any other city save Toronto and the station is right downtown. One of the lines, the old London-Port Stanley railway is almost unused and goes to downtown St.Thomas but still in good repair and right beside one of the city's biggest employers, the LHSC. Of course, there is the line west to Strathroy/Komoka and east to Ingersol/Woodstock which could be used as a type of commuter rail with a schedule worked in like ML does with it's GO service. We are NOT taking about GO monster trains but diesel/battery DMUs ala Ottawa O-Train or UPX.

These routes would be MORE than competitive with any driving route due to London having no urban freeways. This makes London unique in Ontario and anyone who has ever stepped foot in London knows that the traffic is horrific and getting across the city from any direction is a living hell. The current VIA rail route from downtown Strathroy to downtown London {less than a block from the downtown loop of the BRT} takes a mere 22 minutes. You couldn't get to Strathroy to London in 22 minutes on a Sunday morning at 4AM in a Maserati. It takes twice that long during the day and rush hour. London also gets it's fair share of snow especially along the old HWY#22 to Strathroy which would make it very appealing in the winter.

These areas surrounding London are amongst the fastest growing in the country and most of that growth is due to London commuters. It could be introduced as a trial on several of the lines {except St.Mary's/Stratford} where the route simply takes too long. If the trial doesn't work then fine but I think they would find the service well patronized.

 

[micheal_can]

London is, after Toronto, the most ideal place in Ontario for a commuter rail service.

London is a hub of railway lines and has more than any other city save Toronto and the station is right downtown. One of the lines, the old London-Port Stanley railway is almost unused and goes to downtown St.Thomas but still in good repair and right beside one of the city's biggest employers, the LHSC. Of course, there is the line west to Strathroy/Komoka and east to Ingersol/Woodstock which could be used as a type of commuter rail with a schedule worked in like ML does with it's GO service. We are NOT taking about GO monster trains but diesel/battery DMUs ala Ottawa O-Train or UPX.

These routes would be MORE than competitive with any driving route due to London having no urban freeways. This makes London unique in Ontario and anyone who has ever stepped foot in London knows that the traffic is horrific and getting across the city from any direction is a living hell. The current VIA rail route from downtown Strathroy to downtown London {less than a block from the downtown loop of the BRT} takes a mere 22 minutes. You couldn't get to Strathroy to London in 22 minutes on a Sunday morning at 4AM in a Maserati. It takes twice that long during the day and rush hour. London also gets it's fair share of snow especially along the old HWY#22 to Strathroy which would make it very appealing in the winter.

These areas surrounding London are amongst the fastest growing in the country and most of that growth is due to London commuters. It could be introduced as a trial on several of the lines {except St.Mary's/Stratford} where the route simply takes too long. If the trial doesn't work then fine but I think they would find the service well patronized.

It could even use the Siemens Venture sets that Via are using. They would already have a MSF close enough to be able to get what is needed done.

The one concern with doing it is whether there is enough space at the station for the routes. There is the plan for HFR to London eventually, so, plan 1-2tracks just for that. There is only 3 active track there.At one time there was 5. The challenge could be having enough slots for both freight and passenger here. That would be a wonderful problem to face, eventually.

 

[kEiThZ]

London is, after Toronto, the most ideal place in Ontario for a commuter rail service.

London is a hub of railway lines and has more than any other city save Toronto and the station is right downtown.

It's not the number of rail lines that determines adequacy for regional rail. Nor is it the size of surrounding towns. It's travel patterns. Where's the actual demand? If this demand was there (and not diffuse, but to the core of London), we'd see it with everything from private shuttles to traffic patterns. We don't see any of this with London and its surrounding areas. Instead you're here celebrating one bus route running 4x a day (as a trial) as some accomplishment.

Maybe, just maybe, the demand isn't there. Maybe, London doesn't have the commute patterns with those towns. Maybe those who do commute to London aren't all concentrated in the downtown core. Maybe those towns have more old people and remote workers. Who knows.

 

[micheal_can]

It's not the number of rail lines that determines adequacy for regional rail. Nor is it the size of surrounding towns. It's travel patterns. Where's the actual demand? If this demand was there (and not diffuse, but to the core of London), we'd see it with everything from private shuttles to traffic patterns. We don't see any of this with London and its surrounding areas. Instead you're here celebrating one bus route running 4x a day (as a trial) as some accomplishment.

Maybe, just maybe, the demand isn't there. Maybe, London doesn't have the commute patterns with those towns. Maybe those who do commute to London aren't all concentrated in the downtown core. Maybe those towns have more old people and remote workers. Who knows.

Maybe, a provincial government transportation agency would be able to asses all oft his and put in appropriate transportation options. Could be a bus, train or nothing Saying that it can only be nothing because you don't see the need,does not mean there is no need. That is unless you are the head of a provincial transportation agency and has the study to back it up.

 

[Haljackey]

This is true providing your flight doesn't get cancelled, which given recent pilot shortages is a problem.

In the long run, using a slot at a very expensive airport and valuable pilots to fly puddle jumpers 200 km isn't going to be highly lucrative for the airline. Especially if, as you point out, they make nothing on these hops. Airlines will cut these services or replace them with buses first chance they get. You can follow some of this discussion in the Pearson thread.

Aside from just improving access to Toronto and KWC though, what a rail connection to Pearson does is substantially improve options. A trains every 30 - 60 mins offers a lot more options than 6 flights a day.

Don't get me wrong the flight from London to Pearson is stupid, but it is convent AF. The part of Pearson it does occupy is for smaller prop planes. but I guess if you retrofitted/expanded this area you would get some more jet-ways for bigger aircraft flying to destinations further out. Ideally I wish London had a direct flight to places like Vegas- that would avoid people like me from using Pearson and free up capacity.

Pearson has some of the highest landing fees in the world which makes me question why more 747s and A380s don't land here- less flights daily sure but you do save on landing / jet-way congestion.

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This is getting wildly off topic from the London BRT - but I can tell you the initial plans drafted 10 years ago when the Liberal HSR plan was a thing had the 2 LRT lines line up at a hub by the Via rail station downtown... assuming it was going to be expanded for HSR. London itself still lacks a actual central city bus terminal/hub which feels odd. Many smaller cities have a place like this but even with BRT London won't have one.

Lane restrictions are already in place for the east leg BRT along Highbury Avenue. The widening of the Thames River Bridge on Wellington Road also starts soon. The cost overruns are sucking the life out of other infrastructure projects and the city has no funding for the actual operation of the BRT once it is built. Still lots to sort out.

 

[crs1026]

This is getting wildly off topic from the London BRT - but I can tell you the initial plans drafted 10 years ago when the Liberal HSR plan was a thing had the 2 LRT lines line up at a hub by the Via rail station downtown... assuming it was going to be expanded for HSR. London itself still lacks a actual central city bus terminal/hub which feels odd. Many smaller cities have a place like this but even with BRT London won't have one.

London is a place where the transportation and urban planning has done the wrong things, and the voters have only themselves to blame.

There are many sensible things that London could do, if the will were there and the planning were better (the planning serves the Council, and the Council has largely never gotten it, so maybe the planners aren't the ones to blame here).

A commuter rail system is probably what it needs least, but a regional network that at least gets people in and out of the city would be constructive.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Maybe, a provincial government transportation agency would be able to asses all oft his and put in appropriate transportation options.

There's no need of a provincial agency to do this. Municipalities do traffic studies all the time. That's how they plan road expansion or bus route changes.

Saying that it can only be nothing because you don't see the need,does not mean there is no need.

Needs have to be prioritized in the real world because money doesn't grow on trees. Just because there's a need doesn't make it a priority for the provincial taxpayer.

 

[Haljackey]

City approves transit village... without rapid transit. The cancelled east leg BRT would have been close by.

Traffic, transit worries surface as 25-storey Wonderland Road tower debated

A city council committee endorsed a proposed 25-storey tower at 735 Wonderland Rd. N. despite fears by neighbours over its impact on traffic

lfpress.com

A similar situation is unfolding at Masonville mall, which was the terminus of the cancelled north LRT, then BRT line

 

[micheal_can]

City approves transit village... without rapid transit. The cancelled east leg BRT would have been close by.

Traffic, transit worries surface as 25-storey Wonderland Road tower debated

A city council committee endorsed a proposed 25-storey tower at 735 Wonderland Rd. N. despite fears by neighbours over its impact on traffic

lfpress.com

A similar situation is unfolding at Masonville mall, which was the terminus of the cancelled north LRT, then BRT line

The tin foil hat in me thinks this could be the city's way of forcing the citizens to agree that an LRT is needed. Imagine if due to these types of needed projects, during the next municipal election, the winners are the ones pushing for an LRT.

 

[robmausser]

The tin foil hat in me thinks this could be the city's way of forcing the citizens to agree that an LRT is needed. Imagine if due to these types of needed projects, during the next municipal election, the winners are the ones pushing for an LRT.

is anyone pushing for LRT though? I havent heard anyone call for LRT in over a decade.

 

[micheal_can]

is anyone pushing for LRT though? I havent heard anyone call for LRT in over a decade.

I don't know.
Regardless, this city needs more dense housing, so whether an LRT is build because of it or not is irrelevant.

 

[Haljackey]

Any LRT in London is as good as dead. The final proposed rapid transit plan was downgraded to BRT for all routes, and only half of that got approved. Once the system as approved gets built the city may assess it's performance and propose expansions, including the two cancelled lines. However since the city is flat broke (huge cost overruns ongoing for the BRT routes), the city would need to beg for funding from upper levels and I'm almost certain that it will just be for BRT, if anything at all.

 

[micheal_can]

Any LRT in London is as good as dead. The final proposed rapid transit plan was downgraded to BRT for all routes, and only half of that got approved. Once the system as approved gets built the city may assess it's performance and propose expansions, including the two cancelled lines. However since the city is flat broke (huge cost overruns ongoing for the BRT routes), the city would need to beg for funding from upper levels and I'm almost certain that it will just be for BRT, if anything at all.

Sounds like a great way for the PCs to get more votes. Having said that, you are most likely right about the BRT.They will do what York Region has done before an LRT is first built.

 

[Haljackey]

Sounds like a great way for the PCs to get more votes. Having said that, you are most likely right about the BRT.They will do what York Region has done before an LRT is first built.

All of London's ridings went NDP the last two provincial elections. We have never had anyone from the Douggie Ford's government represent us, and I can't currently see that changing for 2026.

 

[micheal_can]

All of London's ridings went NDP the last two provincial elections. We have never had anyone from the Douggie Ford's government represent us, and I can't currently see that changing for 2026.

I know how things are, but, depending on how the next federal election, anything may be possible. With too many things being political, I don't hold my breath for anything anymore.