micheal_can
Senior Member
Buses that are grade separated attracted people.
London Ain't Getting That....
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London Rapid Transit (In-Design)
- Thread starter Midtown Urbanist
- Start date
London Ain't Getting That....
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Most questions of technology feel like asking the wrong question. You build the technology that is appropriate for the corridor. BRT can easily surpass the comforts, ridership, frequency, and speed of LRT under the appropriate conditions. The best example is Ottawa's Transitway.
Likewise, both LRT and BRT can suffer greatly from poor implementation. Is there grade separation? Signal priority at all crossings? Queue jumps at intersections? Level and all-door boarding? Paid-fare areas at stations and stops? Is the frequency at least every 10 minutes? Those are the questions that need to be asked rather than whether the vehicle has rails or wheels (Montreal's metro rolling stock has rubber tires after all
).I'm not familiar enough with London to comment. In Hamilton though, there should be a network combination of both BRT and LRT, and GO transit. If I were to play Premier and tomorrow announce a rapid transit network for Hamilton, it would include:
- Two trunk LRT lines (the current proposed route between McMaster and Eastgate (except extended to Confederation GO) and a north-south route up the mountain and towards the airport (even if the airport seems a bit of a white elephant)
- Four infill stations on the GO transit network (Gage, Parkside, Confederation, and Stoney Creek) to create a local Hamilton-centric section of the network. I would extend the line to St Catharines with stops in Winona, Grimsby, Beamsville, and Vineland as well, and truly make Hamilton a GO network hub and a viable commuting option for the entire region.
- A BRT network for the Mountain, along with a line on Barton Street for coverage, and a Stoney Creek route connecting Eastgate with a proposed GO station near Mohawk's Stoney Creek campus. The implementation of BRT will differ depending on the route. Some arterials on Hamilton's Mountain have the ROW to accommodate full BRT with dedicated laneway and signal priorities, others will be a lighter implementation in mixed traffic but with queue jumping (this could change even on the same route) and other enhancements. Importantly, there has to be better than 10-minute frequency throughout the day on all the highlighted routes. Also drop-off/pick-up in paid fare areas at all interchanges with LRT and GO would be great.
- Up-zoning along the corridors of all highlighted BRT routes (and LRT/GO stations obviously).
Part of the problem in Hamilton is that there is little thought it seems in creating a network that is (a) useful enough to residents to convince them to shift travel modes; (b) addresses that both downtown and the Mountain require a transit renaissance, rather than pitting taxpayers against each other.
I'm sure there are similar pressures in London.
ARG1
Senior Member
We have provided plenty of examples of non grade separated busses that also attracted people.
micheal_can
Senior Member
List them. Do not list any where other types of RT exist. Then it will the same as London.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Ottawa's transitway isn't easily replicable elsewhere granted.
But there are very successful examples of BRT elsewhere, even ones that fail to achieve significant grade-separation. Cleveland's Euclid Avenue BRT is a great example. (Link 1) and (Link 2). It's worth checking out on streetview too.
You can attract a lot of people (and in the Euclid BRT example, economic investment) to a non-grade separated BRT route if you implement other BRT features (stations, frequency, level-boarding, signal priority) correctly.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Cleveland has other RT that is not buses. Doesn't count.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Most of Ottawa's BRT wasn't grade separated. Indeed, the busiest portion (downtown) was not grade separated, not segregated and didn't even have full corridor exclusivity. Other traffic could use Albert and Slater. And OC Transpo still pushed through almost 10 000 pphpd.
BRT can be pulled off just fine with curbside bus lanes, bus bays and signal priority. It's all about good design and ensuring high levels of service.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Maybe London can't pull off something like Ottawa. But they most certainly can do some combination of what VIVA is doing in York and Züm is doing in Brampton for the whole city.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Why wouldn't it count? It is a major trunk route in the transit network and only connects to their rail lines at its termini.
That makes no sense. That is like saying the Finch LRT doesn't count because of the TTC subway.
There are countless examples across North America of LRT implemented poorly because local planning authorities/governments could not provide dedicated ROW, optimal routing, and signal priorities. I'd much rather have a well-designed BRT than a poorly-implemented LRT.
micheal_can
Senior Member
How many km were and were not grade separated?
Zum has been around for about 10 years and they are already planning to replace parts of it with an LRT.
ARG1
Senior Member
A tiny fraction, and even then many are opposed to this.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I am trying to prove that BRT can worth with other RT in place, but not alone unless you do what Ottawa did. So, Cleveland is irrelevant.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Actual numbers please.
DirectionNorth
Active Member
You are setting insanely useless requirements, to disprove anything that doesn't fit your opinion.
Show me a successful LRT without a single connecting bus route.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
You can create a metro system with BRT as the main technology used.
That is what Brisbane did, and their three routes carry much higher daily ridership volumes than most LRTs in the world, more akin to heavy metro systems. Their busways were so successful, that they invested heavily in optimizing the route with a new fleet of high-capacity buses and grade-separating the portions that weren't before.
Brisbane Metro
Brisbane Metro is a key part of Council's plan to get you home quicker and safer, with more travel options, less congestion and better public transport.
One of the best parts about Brisbane's system, is that local bus routes use the busways too, before dispersing to serve their respective local routes (without BRT infrastructure), demonstrating how flexible a BRT network can be. There are worldwide lessons that can be taken and implemented in London to create a successful transit network. It only requires creativity, thoughtful planning, and political willpower.