London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[kEiThZ]

London's mayor wants to make London's bus fleet the first all-electric network in Canada. Might take 10 or more years.

There are hopes that provincial/federal money London left on the table from cancelled BRT routes might help cover this. Over $100 million of funding up for grabs was left out by the decision not to build the full proposed BRT network. Might be used to cover extra cost for buses or charging infrastructure.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/holder-announces-plans-for-zero-emission-buses-but-it-s-far-from-a-sure-thing-1.5435766

Electrifying transit vow jolts London mayor's State of the City audience

Mayor Ed Holder’s surprise pledge to make London Transit’s bus fleet all-electric will need political support and cash to make it happen — and both will hinge…

lfpress.com

This is a fantastic idea. I wish the province would jump on helping the smaller transit operators electrify first. It's easier to help them build infrastructure. And the lower operating costs would help them stabilize budgets much more easily. London, Kingston, Windsor, KWC and Sudbury all come to mind as cities that should be supported and moved towards fully electric bus fleets within 8-10 years.

 

[Haljackey]

Has there been any discussion at all of bringing Presto to operators like LTC?

I don't see the London public supporting Presto.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't see the London public supporting Presto.

The Ottawa public didn't much like it either (because of all the kinks when launched). The province imposed it on them. I think the same should be done to every transit operator within 200 km of Toronto. And then eventually to every transit operator in the province that wants provincial funding. It makes no sense to create a fare payment system meant to facilitate easy transfers and payments and not have it work on systems relatively close to each other or connecting to Toronto. Service only improves through standardization. This one is an easy one. And probably not all that expensive for Queen's Park to pick up entirely.

 

[mickael]

The Ottawa public didn't much like it either (because of all the kinks when launched). The province imposed it on them. I think the same should be done to every transit operator within 200 km of Toronto. And then eventually to every transit operator in the province that wants provincial funding. It makes no sense to create a fare payment system meant to facilitate easy transfers and payments and not have it work on systems relatively close to each other or connecting to Toronto. Service only improves through standardization. This one is an easy one. And probably not all that expensive for Queen's Park to pick up entirely.

I think Presto is going to become obsolete pretty quickly with contactless payments for transit becoming the next standard. Although I can still see the province sticking with it just to waste money.

For comparison the Oyster Card in London is on the way out, to be replaced with credit/debit/Apple Pay/whatever.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think Presto is going to become obsolete pretty quickly with contactless payments for transit becoming the next standard. Although I can still see the province sticking with it just to waste money.

For comparison the Oyster Card in London is on the way out, to be replaced with credit/debit/Apple Pay/whatever.

First, this is Canada and we're probably a decade away from whatever they are doing in London, UK. Next, even with contactless payments you still need a common and integrated infrastructure to account for discounts and transfers. It shouldn't take another decade to ensure that every transit system in the province has the same payment system.

 

[mickael]

First, this is Canada and we're probably a decade away from whatever they are doing in a London. Next, even with contactless payments you still need a common and integrated infrastructure to account for discounts and transfers. It shouldn't take another decade to ensure that every transit system in the province has the same payment system.

I never said it'd happen soon!

But the discounts and transfers was something I, stupidly, didn't consider. Presto readers capable of charging credit/debit are rolling out now at some GO stations, so it's only a matter of time before we see similar infrastructure on GO busses, and eventually TTC vehicles. But you're right, Presto itself wont disappear, even if the cards do.

 

[ssiguy2]

I know this maybe hard for some of you to believe but just because something makes sense in Toronto doesn't mean it makes sense in the rest of the province.

Why on earth would London spend huge sums on a Presto system? It would offer no benefits but cost a fortune to set up. Presto makes sense in larger cities and especially ones that have different transit systems like the GTA where using 3 different systems on one trip is common. London doesn't have this issue as not only does it not have any bordering transit systems but also doesn't have different zones for transit. It's a "one size fits all" system" and all it requires is getting a monthly pass once a year downtown right at Richmond & Dundas and then you can reload it online. What could be simpler?

To use the oldest of clichés...……...if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

To use the oldest of clichés...……...if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

We'd still be using tokens and paper transfers if this mantra was followed all the way through.

 

[pman]

Meanwhile, in the 21st century:

Contactless payments

Contactless is a quick and easy alternative way to pay for your trip on public transport in Sydney and surrounds if you don’t have an Opal card.

transportnsw.info

And when I do tap my Opal card the reader gives me my card balance when I tap on, and fare (varies by day and time) and remaining balance when I tap off.

 

[kEiThZ]

I never said it'd happen soon!

It won't happen soon. That's the problem. And without being compelled to deploy Presto, London is probably further away from contactless payments.

Presto readers capable of charging credit/debit are rolling out now at some GO stations,

Right. Which is why London should deploy that infrastructure. But it's not on a LTC's radar.

Why on earth would London spend huge sums on a Presto system? It would offer no benefits but cost a fortune to set up. Presto makes sense in larger cities and especially ones that have different transit systems like the GTA where using 3 different systems on one trip is common. London doesn't have this issue as not only does it not have any bordering transit systems but also doesn't have different zones for transit. It's a "one size fits all" system" and all it requires is getting a monthly pass once a year downtown right at Richmond & Dundas and then you can reload it online. What could be simpler?

1) Ottawa isn't near Toronto. And doesn't have multiple systems. Was still compelled to use Presto. And Ottawa is arguably more complicated because of STO/Gatineau.

2) As London gets plugged into Toronto with either higher frequency VIA or GO trains, Presto becomes necessary to get around on one end.

3) London will have to make some kind of investment anyway to enable contactless payments.

4) The province would probably pay for some or even all of the cost of implementing Presto. Great time to take it up.

To use the oldest of clichés...……...if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

If that's the case why talk about BRT, LRT, contactless payments, etc? Clearly London doesn't need any investment at all.

 

[tmlittle]

It won't happen soon. That's the problem. And without being compelled to deploy Presto, London is probably further away from contactless payments.



Right. Which is why London should deploy that infrastructure. But it's not on a LTC's radar.



1) Ottawa isn't near Toronto. And doesn't have multiple systems. Was still compelled to use Presto. And Ottawa is arguably more complicated because of STO/Gatineau.

2) As London gets plugged into Toronto with either higher frequency VIA or GO trains, Presto becomes necessary to get around on one end.

3) London will have to make some kind of investment anyway to enable contactless payments.

4) The province would probably pay for some or even all of the cost of implementing Presto. Great time to take it up.



If that's the case why talk about BRT, LRT, contactless payments, etc? Clearly London doesn't need any investment at all.

Presto is a lemon and nobody outside of the GTA wants it who isn't forced at gunpoint. Hence why GRT, Guelph Transit, etc have adopted their own card systems. Only a small minority of people in London will ever commute to. the GTA and most people would probably be fine with a separate system - plenty of people in KW have Presto and easygo cards and don't have issues.

 

[kEiThZ]

Presto is a lemon and nobody outside of the GTA wants it who isn't forced at gunpoint.

What exactly is a "lemon" about it today? Years ago I'd agree with you. But at this point, it's reasonably mature and performing just fine.

Hence why GRT, Guelph Transit, etc have adopted their own card systems. Only a small minority of people in London will ever commute to. the GTA and most people would probably be fine with a separate system - plenty of people in KW have Presto and easygo cards and don't have issues.

There's a provincial interest in ensuring that people throughout the province have it easier to travel between communities. This isn't just about commuting when Presto is deployed on systems like the UP Express too. I see a good case in either encouraging communities to adopt Presto or make funding conditional as happened in Ottawa.

Yes, people can have multiple cards. But why should they have to? There's over 3 million users already. It's time to build around that standard.

 

[Tuscani01]

Meanwhile, in the 21st century:

Contactless payments

Contactless is a quick and easy alternative way to pay for your trip on public transport in Sydney and surrounds if you don’t have an Opal card.

transportnsw.info

And when I do tap my Opal card the reader gives me my card balance when I tap on, and fare (varies by day and time) and remaining balance when I tap off.

Though I did get a few free trips that seem to have not registered when I tapped my apple watch. Oddly, I also received a $7 credit applied to that card a few weeks ago from TransportNSW, despite not having been in Sydney since late October. I wouldn't say the system is perfect either, though the issue seems to have worked in my favour in this case.

 

[ssiguy2]

London already has a smart card system which can be reloaded online so what would Presto offer that the smartcard couldn't? There are also relatively few people in London that take transit and don't get the monthly pass as the pass is only $95/month. Post-secondary students who tend to use transit more than the average person and are more comfortable with the higher tech system don't pay transit fares anyways. Anyone going to Fanshawe or Western don't have fares to worry about.

You put a $100 on your Smartcard online and it gets you 100% coverage for more than a month and if you don't use the month's worth of values, the remaining amount is transferred to the next month. The Smartcard is also transferrable or can be used to pay for passengers travelling with you.London has no adjacent transit systems, no fare zones, and no travel would take longer than 90 minutes regardless of circumstances which is the amount of time each ticket is valid for.

Why would London pay a fortune for Presto with no advantages?

 

[lrt's friend]

I have a Presto card here in Ottawa and loved that I could go to Toronto and use it there without any hassle.