London Rapid Transit (In-Design)

[micheal_can]

This is a strawman argument and you know it. I'm usually very sympathetic to the fiscal issues that Toronto has and how much other levels of the government milk the GTA.

But the disparity on transit funding is incredible. It's incredible to watch Torontonians cry over possibly having to contribute something to the Scarborough subway, while Ottawa taxpayers are sharing over one third of the $2.1 billion Stage 1 and $4.7 billion Stage 2. Approximately $2.5 billion contributed by a city with a population less than York Region, spent over a decade and half. At some point, places like these are going to rebel and start asking why Toronto homeowners get away with lower taxes while they are asked to pay more. Ottawa's mayor is already saying there will be no third phase unless the province and feds pick up the full tab, with the same deal as the GTA.

People elsewhere are getting sick of the disparity. It's one thing to fully fund GO. But to not expect any contributions for the LRTs and subways built?

Still waiting for the Northlander to return....

 

[doady]

This is a strawman argument and you know it. I'm usually very sympathetic to the fiscal issues that Toronto has and how much other levels of the government milk the GTA.

But the disparity on transit funding is incredible. It's incredible to watch Torontonians cry over possibly having to contribute something to the Scarborough subway, while Ottawa taxpayers are sharing over one third of the $2.1 billion Stage 1 and $4.7 billion Stage 2. Approximately $2.5 billion contributed by a city with a population less than York Region, spent over a decade and half. At some point, places like these are going to rebel and start asking why Toronto homeowners get away with lower taxes while they are asked to pay more. Ottawa's mayor is already saying there will be no third phase unless the province and feds pick up the full tab, with the same deal as the GTA.

People elsewhere are getting sick of the disparity. It's one thing to fully fund GO. But to not expect any contributions for the LRTs and subways built?

No, a strawman argument is more like attacking the province's full funding for an LRT project outside of the GTA such as the Hamilton LRT as an example of the province's special treatment for Toronto.

The disparity on transit funding that is incredible is the complete lack of contribution from the federal government on these projects. Funny how you focus on the lack of municipal contribution and complete ignore the lack of federal contribution. So much for fairness, eh?

Again, if Toronto is draining so much from the rest of the province, let's talk separation. Go start a Kick Toronto Out of the Province movement. Let the rest of the province take back the money that is rightfully theirs. Maybe I will support it too.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

No, a strawman argument is more like attacking the province's full funding for an LRT project outside of the GTA such as the Hamilton LRT as an example of the province's special treatment for Toronto.

The disparity on transit funding that is incredible is the complete lack of contribution from the federal government on these projects. Funny how you focus on the lack of municipal contribution and complete ignore the lack of federal contribution. So much for fairness, eh?

Again, if Toronto is draining so much from the rest of the province, let's talk separation. Go start a Kick Toronto Out of the Province movement. Let the rest of the province take back the money that is rightfully theirs. Maybe I will support it too.

I think people are talking past each other. While people within Toronto have terms like GTA, GTAH, Golden Horseshoe, etc, corresponding to concentric rings of further distance. To people in other parts of the province like eastern,northern, and southwestern Ontario "Toronto" or "GTA" is often synonymous with the entire Golden Horseshoe, whereas no one in Toronto would consider Hamilton part of the GTA.

Oddly enough, this is also why the province actually should be more involved than in other places. Only within the Golden Horseshoe is there a need for a higher level of government to help coordinate transit over a batch of sometimes battling municipalities where there is a significant portion of cross regional transit demand. Cities like Ottawa, KW, and London have a single transit authority to cover the vast majority of their regions, they don't need the province stepping into their affairs.

However, the optics still look unfair to outsiders, since they see things like the crosstown or Hamilton's A-Line getting fully funded without any municipal dollars required.

 

[kEiThZ]

outside of the GTA such as the Hamilton

A red herring response.

Whatever the definition of the GTA, GTHA, Golden Horsehose, etc. the reality is that we now have a two tier province where half the population in that area gets full funding from the province and others have to rely on one third. Citing the feds (who are involved under Trudeau) and some geographical definition offence of Hamilton being part of the GTA, is some despicable bullshit to everyone else in the province not going to the same deal.

Particuarly bad in Ottawa's case, as the sixth largest metro in the country, the second largest city in the province. Where's the Government of Ontario transit system for the National Capital Region? Why is OC Transpo expected to serve such a massive area while still contributing to one third of its capital projects.

London's getting a raw deal here likewise. And if this keeps up the backlash will be notable. Ford is not even the worst-case scenario. He's a Toronto-centric premier.

 

[micheal_can]

I think people are talking past each other. While people within Toronto have terms like GTA, GTAH, Golden Horseshoe, etc, corresponding to concentric rings of further distance. To people in other parts of the province like eastern,northern, and southwestern Ontario "Toronto" or "GTA" is often synonymous with the entire Golden Horseshoe, whereas no one in Toronto would consider Hamilton part of the GTA.

Oddly enough, this is also why the province actually should be more involved than in other places. Only within the Golden Horseshoe is there a need for a higher level of government to help coordinate transit over a batch of sometimes battling municipalities where there is a significant portion of cross regional transit demand. Cities like Ottawa, KW, and London have a single transit authority to cover the vast majority of their regions, they don't need the province stepping into their affairs.

However, the optics still look unfair to outsiders, since they see things like the crosstown or Hamilton's A-Line getting fully funded without any municipal dollars required.

I consider anything that a GO train stops in to be GTA. That means that Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, and Niagara Falls all are GTA to me. Soon so will Peterbourough and London. People are already living in London and commuting to Toronto, so it soon will have a GO train.

 

[doady]

A red herring response.

Whatever the definition of the GTA, GTHA, Golden Horsehose, etc. the reality is that we now have a two tier province where half the population in that area gets full funding from the province and others have to rely on one third.

Red herring? You are the one making up definitions, not me. Attacking Toronto because of what going on in Hamilton is just laughable. Hamilton is not "Toronto." And neither is Niagara, Barrie, Guelph, Kitchener and all those other places GO/Metrolinx serves. 7 different CMAs, 8 million population, 70% of the province is "Toronto" in your mind. Who the hell thinks St. Catherine's is part of "Toronto"? I just think it's ridiculous.

Citing the feds (who are involved under Trudeau) and some geographical definition offence of Hamilton being part of the GTA, is some despicable bullshit to everyone else in the province not going to the same deal.

You are getting angry about someone using "geographical definition" to define a place... lol. If place is not defined by geography then I don't know wtf is.

 

[doady]

I think people are talking past each other. While people within Toronto have terms like GTA, GTAH, Golden Horseshoe, etc, corresponding to concentric rings of further distance. To people in other parts of the province like eastern,northern, and southwestern Ontario "Toronto" or "GTA" is often synonymous with the entire Golden Horseshoe, whereas no one in Toronto would consider Hamilton part of the GTA.

Oddly enough, this is also why the province actually should be more involved than in other places. Only within the Golden Horseshoe is there a need for a higher level of government to help coordinate transit over a batch of sometimes battling municipalities where there is a significant portion of cross regional transit demand. Cities like Ottawa, KW, and London have a single transit authority to cover the vast majority of their regions, they don't need the province stepping into their affairs.

However, the optics still look unfair to outsiders, since they see things like the crosstown or Hamilton's A-Line getting fully funded without any municipal dollars required.

I get what you mean. But just because people see "Toronto" a certain way doesn't mean it is true. Keithz should know better. Hamilton is only tenuously connected with Toronto and GTA, including politically, and the rest of the Greater Golden Horsehoe beyond is even more tenuous. Even Burlington is a very self-contained city, let alone Hamilton.

I was not in favour of Hamillton and Crosstown getting taken over by the province and GO. It made sense for Hurontario-Main because Brampton and Mississauga have separate systems, but it is harder to justify when HSR or TTC could easily operate it themselves.

 

[ssiguy2]

Separation of Toronto from Ontario will never happen but Torontonians would, of course, be surprised to find out that it would have far higher support for those outside the GTA than in it. For the rest of the province Toronto already has it good and this transit funding inequity is a glaring example.

Toronto taxes are low because Toronto refuses to pay for it's own transit infrastructure. If QP wasn't picking up the tab for every LRT line and GO line and station upgrades, it wouldn't have ANY rapid transit expansion underway. The facts speak for themselves, the reason all Western Canadian cities and Ottawa and KW have been able to expand their transit over the years and decades will Toronto's has stood still is because they do something that Toronto won't.........….cough up the money. Toronto's puny rapid transit system is completely of her own making.

 

[stanko]

And a true Premier of Toronto would probably not give a shit about Hamilton, since, y'know, Hamilton is different metropolitan area.

That may have been true decades ago but Hamilton has gotten sucked into the GTA over the years and it's not like the mass migration of Torontonians to Hamilton helped. Read: https://www.thespec.com/news-story/7971330-hamilton-becoming-a-city-of-commuters/

And the only reason Wynne "gave a shit" about Hamilton was because her plan with the LRT was to get the inner city ridings of Hamilton to vote Liberal. Heh, too bad for her that didn't work out

 

[jaybe]

Separation of Toronto from Ontario will never happen but Torontonians would, of course, be surprised to find out that it would have far higher support for those outside the GTA than in it. For the rest of the province Toronto already has it good and this transit funding inequity is a glaring example.

Toronto taxes are low because Toronto refuses to pay for it's own transit infrastructure. If QP wasn't picking up the tab for every LRT line and GO line and station upgrades, it wouldn't have ANY rapid transit expansion underway. The facts speak for themselves, the reason all Western Canadian cities and Ottawa and KW have been able to expand their transit over the years and decades will Toronto's has stood still is because they do something that Toronto won't.........….cough up the money. Toronto's puny rapid transit system is completely of her own making.

Ok I’ll bite.

Across North America, Transit is not funded by cities because they don’t have the tax revenue to support it. Transit is funded by higher levels of Government.

Municipal Property taxes represent a small portion of overall government revenues. In Ontario, Income tax, the HST and transfers from the Fed Gov are the primary sources of revenue for provincial coffers.

So where do you think the bulk of taxes come from? Hint, it is not SW Ontario.

The GTA pays most taxes. Toronto households, on average, pay less than some of the suburbs. This is strictly a function of household income. You can be sure that many of those suburban households derive a portion of their income by working a high paying job in Toronto.

GTA households pay far more in taxes than they receive back in services. (I could only find a 2004 Fraser Institute report that had details). Statscan’s 2016 census report says:
Among the 152 Canadian metropolitan areas, 9 saw median incomes fall, 8 of which were in Ontario and 1 in Quebec. The decline in manufacturing in Ontario affected certain manufacturing towns more than others. Windsor (-6.4%) and Tillsonburg (-5.7%) had the largest declines in median incomes in Ontario metropolitan areas and both had about one-quarter of their workforce in manufacturing in 2005.

Your comment was somewhat misinformed. You are correct that Toronto has low taxes. There is room to increase municipal property taxes in Toronto. That said, any increase would not be nearly enough to fund the construction of higher order transit. When you look at income tax, The GTA and Toronto specifically, most certainly deserve transit funding.

 

[micheal_can]

Ok I’ll bite.

Across North America, Transit is not funded by cities because they don’t have the tax revenue to support it. Transit is funded by higher levels of Government.

Municipal Property taxes represent a small portion of overall government revenues. In Ontario, Income tax, the HST and transfers from the Fed Gov are the primary sources of revenue for provincial coffers.

So where do you think the bulk of taxes come from? Hint, it is not SW Ontario.

The GTA pays most taxes. Toronto households, on average, pay less than some of the suburbs. This is strictly a function of household income. You can be sure that many of those suburban households derive a portion of their income by working a high paying job in Toronto.

GTA households pay far more in taxes than they receive back in services. (I could only find a 2004 Fraser Institute report that had details). Statscan’s 2016 census report says:
Among the 152 Canadian metropolitan areas, 9 saw median incomes fall, 8 of which were in Ontario and 1 in Quebec. The decline in manufacturing in Ontario affected certain manufacturing towns more than others. Windsor (-6.4%) and Tillsonburg (-5.7%) had the largest declines in median incomes in Ontario metropolitan areas and both had about one-quarter of their workforce in manufacturing in 2005.

Your comment was somewhat misinformed. You are correct that Toronto has low taxes. There is room to increase municipal property taxes in Toronto. That said, any increase would not be nearly enough to fund the construction of higher order transit. When you look at income tax, The GTA and Toronto specifically, most certainly deserve transit funding.

Prove it.

The problem with government accounting is they cannot show where the money comes and goes on a riding based level.

I understand what you are trying to say, but, for example, in Timmins there are several gold mines that the revenue from that is not spent locally. It goes to Toronto.

 

[jaybe]

Prove it.

The problem with government accounting is they cannot show where the money comes and goes on a riding based level.

I understand what you are trying to say, but, for example, in Timmins there are several gold mines that the revenue from that is not spent locally. It goes to Toronto.

You are correct that there isn't direct reporting on revenues and expenditures on a riding by riding basis. I would certainly challenge your example that taxes from gold mines in Timmins go to Toronto. How much tax do you think that gold mine would pay? If they generate $1B worth of profits (which is a ridiculously huge number) they would pay roughly 10% taxes or $100M. That is not a lot of $$$ to provide transfer payments (Employment Insurance, OAS, etc), health services, first nations support, etc. You can be 100% certain that those funds are consumed in Northern Ontario.

Federal Transfer payments are another way to analyze the issue. The "have-not" provinces have the lowest family incomes and receive the greatest transfer of payments. In general, Northern Ontario has low family incomes and is likely receiving significant transfer payments into the region. There are some exceptional communities like Petawawa, that have high incomes. Perhaps Timmins is another.

This is a link to Fraser doc I referenced: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/SharetheWealth.pdf. This is the key quote:
"A minority of 9 Ontario counties are subsidizing the other 40. Twenty-one counties pay less tax than they receive in government services, with most found in the eastern and northern regions. Five counties effectively have most or all of their personal income taxes refunded in the form of an equivalent dollar value of services."

Although written in 2004, I would imagine that with growth in the disparity of income since 2004, current findings would be more dramatic.

I think we are way off topic, so that is all I'll have to say.....

 

[drum118]

Cost of some transit projects on London list may land more heavily on city taxpayers

 

[Haljackey]

Looks like 3/5 components of the BRT system may actually be saved.

Politicians carve up BRT, kill north and west routes

A marathon meeting ended with a mix-and-match transit plan

lfpress.com

BRT hacked back as north, west routes voted down | CBC News

Council votes against supporting two of five legs of London's controversial bus rapid transit plan.

www.cbc.ca

...For this city I will take this as a win. We can always revisit the other routes in the future as well.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's a real shame because the north alignment would have been by far the highest use line, servicing the main regional mall and Western U.