Liberal-NDP Coalition

[lordmandeep]

hello the coalition is dead with Iggy is leader, simple as that!

 

[Admiral Beez]

hello the coalition is dead with Iggy is leader, simple as that!

What I'd really like to see is a departure of Rae. Having that failed premier as my MP in Cabbagetown riles me to no end.

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you bothered to read the news, the Minister of Finance was going to be a Liberal under the coalition deal.

Yes, that was what was reported in the news. It was also reported in the news that Dion would stick around until May 2009, and earlier it was reported that the Liberals had declared that they could not enter into a coalition with the NDP. I just don't share your absolute faith in the news as a predictor of future events. However, let's assume the news was right, and the finance minister was a Liberal. Do you see them giving any cabinet position to Layton? I'd think they'd have to, and it would likely need to be something relatively senior or important, such as industry (forgoing Clement's useless time in that role), environment or infrastructure. All the while, Layton will be pushing his agenda with whomever sits in the finance chair.

If I had been Layton I would have let the political party financing proposal pass. It would have starved the Green Party to death in time for the next election, and IMO the NDP will be well placed to finance itself through grassroots support, all the while the Liberals would be floundering.

 

[lordmandeep]

Imo the Liberals should divorce themselves from the NDP and away from the left back to the Centre, where a majority of Canadians are.

 

[adma]

I kinda wonder what's gonna happen to the NDP--in this whole coalition thing aftemath, they may wind up looking like losers for being "winners". Part of the problem being, Iggy's not seen so much as (or so negatively as) the "Conservative in Liberal clothing" as NDPers would like to believe.

 

[kEiThZ]

I kinda wonder what's gonna happen to the NDP--in this whole coalition thing aftemath, they may wind up looking like losers for being "winners". Part of the problem being, Iggy's not seen so much as (or so negatively as) the "Conservative in Liberal clothing" as NDPers would like to believe.

Better if he is...it'll attract even more of the centrist vote. And there are more votes in the centre than on the left. I am predicting a big disappointment for the NDP if this coalition falls apart and Iggy is left at the helm of the Liberal ship. The Liberal flirtation with the NDP will quickly end as the Liberals become more attractive under a new leader.

 

[Mot]

Better if he is...it'll attract even more of the centrist vote. And there are more votes in the centre than on the left. I am predicting a big disappointment for the NDP if this coalition falls apart and Iggy is left at the helm of the Liberal ship. The Liberal flirtation with the NDP will quickly end as the Liberals become more attractive under a new leader.

I am curious what your version of the centre look like, it's quite subjective.
You ask 100 Canadians and you get 100 different definitions.

 

[Whoaccio]

I am curious what your version of the centre look like, it's quite subjective.
You ask 100 Canadians and you get 100 different definitions.

Health care. That is pretty much the definition of Canadian centrism. In a perverse way, Paul Martin might have really screwed the Liberals with his health care plan. During the 90s, the Libs could just run by promoting public health care and associating the Tories, with some degree of exaggeration, with declining quality of care. Now provinces are guaranteed 6% p.a. funding bumps.

 

[Mot]

Health care. That is pretty much the definition of Canadian centrism. In a perverse way, Paul Martin might have really screwed the Liberals with his health care plan. During the 90s, the Libs could just run by promoting public health care and associating the Tories, with some degree of exaggeration, with declining quality of care. Now provinces are guaranteed 6% p.a. funding bumps.

So I can see the "Centre" would agree Conservatives and their health care privitization schemes would not be something the would want and by your shared knowledge they would not like the Liberals either. The "rabid" left is appearing more mainstream to me.

 

[Whoaccio]

So I can see the "Centre" would agree Conservatives and their health care privitization schemes would not be something the would want and by your shared knowledge they would not like the Liberals either. The "rabid" left is appearing more mainstream to me.

I don't think the CPC has ever actually mentioned privatization as a policy direction, but anyways. No, the NDP is not like by Canadians when it comes to health care because they aren't perceived to deliver value for money. Eliminating tax cuts and implementing pharma-, dental- and eye- care programs strike most Canadians as too expansive. Even if it amounts to fluff policy, Canadians like to be told that "efficiencies" are being found in the health care system (Local Integrated Health Networks, for instance) where they trust Liberals and Conservatives. The NDP is perceived as being in the pocket of CUPE and more likely to value the jobs of nurses to the actual care of people.

 

[ShonTron]

What? Canadians don't trust the NDP on health care?

I think Canadians like to see more money going into health care, especially if they see results. It's the one social program that Canadians overwhelmingly support, even across party lines. The Fraser Institute and CD Howe Institute and CMA like to see "efficiencies", which I read often as calls for back-door privatization.

Didn't the Liberals promise pharmacare back in the 1997 or 2000 elections?

 

[lordmandeep]

imo the healthcare system can easily be fixed by efficiencies.

Simply put, create a walk in clinic in all hospitals for people who are going to the ER for no reason.

Keep the ER for the people who really need to be there.


I went to ER and everyone needed medical attention but 50% just needed a regular doctor to fix their problems.

Can we have a nurse on the side, fixing cuts and bruises??

 

[ShonTron]

So I can see the "Centre" would agree Conservatives and their health care privitization schemes would not be something the would want and by your shared knowledge they would not like the Liberals either. The "rabid" left is appearing more mainstream to me.

I am noticing more and more that moderate right-wingers are pushing for centre-right leaders and policies and calling it "the centre". Such as "we need to go with Manley", who is on the far right of the Liberals to succeed. There's a push to redefine what the "centre" is.

Lordmandeep, that kind of efficiencies are certainly welcome. However, guess who was the lead proponent for these kind of healthcare reform? Roy Romanow, the former NDP Premier of Saskatchewan. The Romanow Report was praised by most people, unfortunately, it has been left largely unimplemented.

 

[MisterF]

Investment in urban transit, water infrastructure, etc. is certainly necessary over the long term, but it will provide no stimulus, because by the time the first shovel is in the ground this recession will be over and all the government will be doing is inflating the boom that follows.

I wouldn't dismiss that kind of infrastructure spending so quickly. Even before shovels are in the ground, there are probably just as many jobs in designing the project as there are in building it. A highway widening, a new rail line, or an urban transit project could have a dozen consulting firms designing the project, ranging from civil engineers to fisheries specialists. There doesn't have to be actual construction for there to be a stimulus.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wouldn't dismiss that kind of infrastructure spending so quickly. Even before shovels are in the ground, there are probably just as many jobs in designing the project as there are in building it. A highway widening, a new rail line, or an urban transit project could have a dozen consulting firms designing the project, ranging from civil engineers to fisheries specialists. There doesn't have to be actual construction for there to be a stimulus.

As an engineer myself and currently supporting a brother with a master's in engineering looking for work, I am acutely aware of the design phase. However, the bulk of employment in any project comes after the design phase. That's reality.

If you want to create jobs, you have to you have to do that by creating construction work. That cannot be done quickly by implementing projects which have long consultation, EA and design phases. The most extreme example of this is the proposal to consider Ontario-Quebec HSR as a stimulus program. With good timing that might turn out to be stimulus for our next recession!

The only solution for this current recession is to tackle accumulated deferred maintenance (ADM). That's not as sexy as high speed or light rail. It's fixing roofs in elementary schools, resurfacing municipal roads, replacing diagnostic equipment at hospitals, rebuilding hangars at military bases, replacing half century old water mains, etc. This is stuff that can be started quickly, does not need EA, often has no jurisdictional conflicts, and will likely result in immediate savings through reduced O&M costs. And you have to keep in mind that the most vulnerable workers are also incidentally construction workers who will have higher unemployment than engineers, consultants, etc. especially as the housing downturn sets in. Better to put that surplus labour to work tackling that 123 billion in infrastructure backlog before addressing the 115 billion we need in new infrastructure.

Lastly, have a look at our most critical infrastructure need. It's water treatment and delivery (averaging well over 30-40 years old) and roads. It's not transit. There is no good having a new light rail line if you don't have safe, clean water and poor roads for the bus to take you to that rail line. As presently proposed the Liberal-NDP stimulus plan appears to be an excuse to deliver new social programs rather than being targeted at solving our current economic malaise.