Las Vegas North-Plans For Niagara Falls

[rdaner]

I hadn’t seen the idea for a new international airport before nor the major amusement park idea. Disney? Six Flags? Megamall?

Ontario’s vision of Niagara as northern Las Vegas may not include Marineland, Tourism Minister says

Ontario Tourism Minister Stan Cho says the province is ‘not currently in discussions with any of the private matters going around the sale’ of Marineland, which is located a short distance from Horseshoe Falls

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[lenaitch]

Oh goody; a Niagara Strategy. What is with Fords and theme parks? Sure they could open up gaming in the area by breaking up their agreement with Mohegan. All they have to do is toss a whole lot of our money at them.

 

[Northern Light]

I hadn’t seen the idea for a new international airport before nor the major amusement park idea. Disney? Six Flags? Megamaall?

Ontario’s vision of Niagara as northern Las Vegas may not include Marineland, Tourism Minister says

Ontario Tourism Minister Stan Cho says the province is ‘not currently in discussions with any of the private matters going around the sale’ of Marineland, which is located a short distance from Horseshoe Falls

www.theglobeandmail.com

There's little of substance in the piece.

All that we might take away is that the province:

a) Hasn't had talks w/Marineland's owners and is clearly aware that that Park, as is, is dead.

b) The would like there to be a theme park somewhere in the general area as a marquee attraction; but haven't designated any land for such, nor apparently had any discussions with any proponent.

c) They would like more/better casinos, but the current operator has a monopoly to 2040 which, as @lenaitch notes above will cost money to get out of; meanwhile I've seen little evidence that between the casinos on the Canadian and U.S. sides of the border that there is a vast unmet demand for more of the same.

d) They seem to be remarkably obtuse about nature as an attraction given that 'The Falls' are the centrepiece of the area, and a global draw. How curious to champion what are generally windowless boxes when one has something incredible to view, just out the door.

 

[DSC]

There's little of substance in the piece.

All that we might take away is that the province:

a) Hasn't had talks w/Marineland's owners and is clearly aware that that Park, as is, is dead.

b) The would like there to be a theme park somewhere in the general area as a marquee attraction; but haven't designated any land for such, nor apparently had any discussions with any proponent.

c) They would like more/better casinos, but the current operator has a monopoly to 2040 which, as @lenaitch notes above will cost money to get out of; meanwhile I've seen little evidence that between the casinos on the Canadian and U.S. sides of the border that there is a vast unmet demand for more of the same.

d) They seem to be remarkably obtuse about nature as an attraction given that 'The Falls' are the centrepiece of the area, and a global draw. How curious to champion what are generally windowless boxes when one has something incredible to view, just out the door.

Agree 100%. One of the major problems at NF is that the GO/VIA station is not close to where visitors actually want to be and the links from it to 'downtown' are poor. If the local transportation in NF were better then it would be feasible to set up car parks outside the City with regular transit service to them. European cities do this regularly and it works for both day trippers (who can park easily and cheaply and take bus to 'the attractions') and locals who see far less traffic 'downtown'.

 

[Northern Light]

Agree 100%. One of the major problems at NF is that the GO/VIA station is not close to where visitors actually want to be and the links from it to 'downtown' are poor. If the local transportation in NF were better then it would be feasible to set up car parks outside the City with regular transit service to them. European cities do this regularly and it works for both day trippers (who can park easily and cheaply and take bus to 'the attractions') and locals who see far less traffic 'downtown'.

I have previously reviewed options to address this issue here at UT.

I won't revisit them all, but will note that there are a few options that rise to more likely/viable than others.

1) An LRT from the current GO/VIA station along Victoria Avenue to the Clifton Hill/Falls area.

2) A single station extension of the GO Service along the former ROW to approximately Highway 420. This is about as close as one can get to the main drag w/o either elevating or tunnelling due to obstructions and track that formerly ran within the road ROW. While still not ideal, it would dramatically shorten the walking/transit distance to hotels/the Falls vs the current location.

3) Necessary investments to get routine GO service to bi-hourly or better, year round, 7 days per week, with hourly service on weekends and holiday Mondays from early May to late October each year.

Depending on exact choices made, each of these are investments in the range of 1B - 2.5B.

***

In the shorter term, bolstering GO service with just one extra run each way on weekends/holidays at key times; subsidizing extra local bus service from the GO/VIA Station, preferably with Artics, and upgrading the Grimsby sub to slash travel times can be achieved at considerably less cost.

 

[jje1000]

I think in general the issue with trying to apply Las Vegas-style tourism to Niagara Falls is that Niagara Falls doesn't have Las Vegas weather, its airport, and the 12-months of mass tourism it can sustain*- and hence the main mass tourism seasons here will always be far more limited, along with the number of attractions those tourist numbers can sustain.

As such, I think that the hopes for additional casinos may be too hopeful, while mass tourism strategies really needs to consolidate around a few areas where the placemaking/existing attractions are the strongest. Trying to spread things too far will result in an unfavorable Vegas-cheap feeling.

On a more specific note, along with higher level transit along Victoria Avenue and maybe down Stanley Ave, there should be some masterplanning and overall urban consolidation done for the area south of Victoria Avenue as the cluster of hotels around the Falls have really developed in a rather unorganized manner, while the adjacent former residential neighborhoods have become confused and degraded. Masterplanning should try to delineate tourist zones, while the remainder should be redeveloped back into residential uses. If some level of residential population can be injected back into the area, I think that it might also allow for a larger local population base for at least some basic retail and dining to persist beyond the seasonal mass tourism.

* Also Las Vegas has developed far beyond gambling and mass tourism, and has hosts some of the largest US conventions nowadays.

Some additional interesting notes from this article- of concern is the age of the properties:

“There’s a lot more competition out there than in the beginning. Fallsview Casino was the most successful casino in North America at the time. Casino revenues are significantly declining in Ontario. Online gaming is another factor that wasn’t present when they first contemplated gaming.”

Diodati said there should be a “completely new model and new regulations.”

“With competition, that incentivizes the casino operator to reinvest in the product, because if you don’t the product gets old. Our gem, the jewel in our gaming crown, is Fallsview Casino and it’s almost 20 years old already. Casino Niagara is going on 30 years,” he said.

Diodati said he has spoken with “some of the major operations” in Las Vegas.

“They’ve made it quite clear that you guys need a compete model change if you want to attract the major brands of the world into your community,” he said.

“Along with that comes boutique hotels where they’ll build five-star, along with that will come more entertainment options. Back in the day you went to Vegas to gamble — today gambling is not the top reason why you go. You go for the entertainment, you go for the great culinary experiences, you go for the sporting events.”

While the city has seen hotel applications come before council, Diodati said Niagara Falls hasn’t had a new hotel built in 17 years.

“Our inventory is getting stagnant and it’s getting stale, so we could use some upgrades and some additions,” he said, pointing to how opening gaming up to competition has benefited other jurisdictions around the world.

“Nashville has built more hotels in the last 10 years than we have ever. We’ve got the falls, one of the great natural wonders of the world — no excuse for our tourism to stagnate.”

Diodati said Niagara Falls is missing the “nicer, high-end boutique” hotel market.

“Those kinds of people end up staying in Toronto and day trip to Niagara Falls. We want them to stay here and then day trip to Toronto.”

Casino competition: Are more operators of gambling facilities coming to Niagara Falls?

It appears Niagara Falls’ call to open the city’s casino market up to competition has caught the attention of Queen’s Park

www.niagarafallsreview.ca

 

[afransen]

I hadn’t seen the idea for a new international airport before nor the major amusement park idea. Disney? Six Flags? Megamall?

Ontario’s vision of Niagara as northern Las Vegas may not include Marineland, Tourism Minister says

Ontario Tourism Minister Stan Cho says the province is ‘not currently in discussions with any of the private matters going around the sale’ of Marineland, which is located a short distance from Horseshoe Falls

www.theglobeandmail.com

Sounds like a great place for a megaspa. Move Therme there.

 

[rdaner]

^Maybe there is room for two?! Lol

 

[lenaitch]

I realize this government treats municipalities like a stepdaughter's bastard child, but I wonder if anybody has bothered to ask what the city and region think of all this. There's decent odds that many of them heard about this at the same time we did. It's one thing to play fast and loose with host municipalities when it is your own property like Ontario Place or the Science Centre, but outside of Niagara Parks, this isn't their playground.

I understand a big impediment to frequent rail service is the Seaway crossing. Access to 'downtown by tunnelling would be complicated by hydro canals, hydro tunnels and leaky dolostone and shale.

Gaming is discretionary income and the more ways the government comes up with separating us from our money, the less each venue becomes a destination. Niagara Falls and Windsor drew a lot of US traffic until the border tightened up after 9/11. US residents still have the advantage of the currency exchange, but now they have their own places and don't need a passport. Rama had a bus bay that rivalled Toronto's, then Covid hit and they expanded other facilities closer to the GTA. Without the other year-round elements similar to Vegas (which they took years to build), what's the hook to increase gaming tourism? They can't comp them booze like in the US. Anybody who thinks they'll be able to offer multi-day flight/hotel packages for under $1000 needs to drink less.

This is a lot of bread and circuses when about 2.5 million taxpayers would likely rather have a family physician.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The one natural asset NF has - the Falls and the view around it - is compromised by thoughtlessly garish (but cheap) hotel architecture and landscaping. I can't wait to see what good ideas the province comes up with.

AoD

 

[christiesplits]

I hadn’t seen the idea for a new international airport before nor the major amusement park idea. Disney? Six Flags? Megamall?

Ontario’s vision of Niagara as northern Las Vegas may not include Marineland, Tourism Minister says

Ontario Tourism Minister Stan Cho says the province is ‘not currently in discussions with any of the private matters going around the sale’ of Marineland, which is located a short distance from Horseshoe Falls

www.theglobeandmail.com

There's little of substance in the piece.

All that we might take away is that the province:

a) Hasn't had talks w/Marineland's owners and is clearly aware that that Park, as is, is dead.

b) The would like there to be a theme park somewhere in the general area as a marquee attraction; but haven't designated any land for such, nor apparently had any discussions with any proponent.

c) They would like more/better casinos, but the current operator has a monopoly to 2040 which, as @lenaitch notes above will cost money to get out of; meanwhile I've seen little evidence that between the casinos on the Canadian and U.S. sides of the border that there is a vast unmet demand for more of the same.

d) They seem to be remarkably obtuse about nature as an attraction given that 'The Falls' are the centrepiece of the area, and a global draw. How curious to champion what are generally windowless boxes when one has something incredible to view, just out the door.

This could just be election posturing. The Ontario PCs are looking to pick up three Niagara Region seats currently held by the NDP.

 

[junctionist]

Ah, Niagara Falls revitalization. It's another issue like Ontario Place or the availability of beer in stores that has been neglected by government after government. And it will now get the attention it deserves, only to be dealt with in a regrettable way through bad planning and massive handouts to the private sector.

 

[lenaitch]

I'm wondering if someone who has the power could merge the recent bits of this thread and the Marineland thread. They seem to stepping on each other.

 

[jje1000]

The one natural asset NF has - the Falls and the view around it - is compromised by thoughtlessly garish (but cheap) hotel architecture and landscaping. I can't wait to see what good ideas the province comes up with.

AoD

There is still some good architecture in Niagara Falls, but nearly all of that is inherited from the past.

I think the issue of the hotels and poor planning in Niagara Falls ultimately falls to the city and its lack of vision that has resulted in piecemeal development within a rather ugly inner city neighborhood. Still, it does point to a general shallowness of CanCon architecture and planning in many Ontario small cities and towns.

 

[Jonny5]

To summarise all this, Vegas has evolved to be both a destination for "dream vacations" for the middle class who take their once in a decade dream trips, while also a play thing for very rich (or pretend rich) people who expect VVVVVIP treatment by throwing around money. Those are both the class of tourist who blow money not inside the casinos, but on all the add-ons and frills for the "experience".

"Spend an extra $400/night to upgrade to the ultra luxe super King bed suite," or buy that $200 wagyu steak at some celebrity chef's restaurant which he hasn't set foot in since the day after it opened five years ago, or "get the $300 bottle of Grey Goose at the club!" and have the club make a huge deal about you buying it.

The reality is people are going to Niagara Falls to spend $400 total, not to spend an extra $400 on their already $4,000 trip.

So then the first fundamental question is, "why aren't we OK with it being exactly what it is?," because if we are, all is fine, but if it's not OK, well why not? Why do we have to try to change it? Why is it important to glamourise it to "be Vegas," and most importantly, to whom is that important? Because I don't think I've heard an answer to that question, and I bet the people that want that are simply looking for gov funded mass development?

And all this will cost billions to make it Vegas. Many many billions of both public and private money.
Taylor Swift will gladly have her tour stop in Vegas. She probably doesn't even know Niagara Falls exists because it isn't even on the map not having even a single modern venue, and until it has one, it's never going to get the Vegas destination travel crowd, and the stadium will be the most expensive line item on those billions. Nevermind the giant airport.