Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[Urban Sky]

The 'Rockies By Daylight' service did quite well as well. It sounds like this business model was largely subsumed by Rocky Mountain Rail Tours.

VIA's Canadian Rockies by Daylight

In 1987, VIA Rail Canada under President Lawrence Hanigan became increasingly aware of a need to try new things, in light of continuing...

tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com

Just to add salt to the injury of loosing half of its network because it was too unprofitable, VIA was also forced to sell off (or more like: hand over) the “Rockies by Daylight” service because it actually was profitable, which was subsequently absorbed by a private investor under the “Rocky Mountaineer” brand.

It was only when VIA started to refocus the Canadian on tourism by introducing the Prestige Class that the Canadian briefly recovered all its direct costs (101.5% in 2018), but it is of course telling that making the trains as unattractive as possible for tourists (e.g., by imposing overnight stays in Winnipeg and Edmonton on them) seems to be among the top concerns of our troll from Sudbury…

 

[micheal_can]

Just to add salt to the injury of loosing half of its network because it was too unprofitable, VIA was also forced to sell off (or more like: hand over) the “Rockies by Daylight” service because it actually was profitable, which was subsequently absorbed by a private investor under the “Rocky Mountaineer” brand.

It was only when VIA started to refocus the Canadian on tourism by introducing the Prestige Class that the Canadian briefly recovered all its direct costs (101.5% in 2018), but it is of course telling that making the trains as unattractive as possible for tourists (e.g., by imposing overnight stays in Winnipeg and Edmonton on them) seems to be among the top concerns of our troll from Sudbury…

I think you have missed the part of "Canadian should be a daily train, especially during peak season".

 

[just east of the creek]

Quick reminder that even in the golden age of VIA (1985-1989), no intercity route outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor recovered even half of its direct costs, despite most operating daily:

View attachment 596780
Crosspost from: Amtrak Unlimited forum

The claim that any VIA routes outside the Corridor would likely be profitable if operating daily is as detached from reality as anything else that same person writes here…

Completely, absolutely and totally agree. Which is why something like the Northlander ( as beloved as it may be) is strictly a political puppy and will die a quick death through political expediency should ridership, tourist and non-tourist, show abysmal levels of use, should budget pressures become more extreme for the Ontario Government, and should airlines begin to compete on the same routes. Only the routes where sizeable populations exist, and the potential for speed, service and numbers exist, should remain.So VIA corridor, GO and GO Regional, possibly Edmonton-Calgary (although that could be a provincial service) and the existing tourist trains (which also add a degree of connectivity to remote areas - So the Canadian etc) The rest is pure fantasy (fun, but fantasy). Even the Montreal Transit Rail services are in danger if the government does not undergo a sea change in thought as well.

 

[micheal_can]

Completely, absolutely and totally agree. Which is why something like the Northlander ( as beloved as it may be) is strictly a political puppy and will die a quick death through political expediency should ridership, tourist and non-tourist, show abysmal levels of use, should budget pressures become more extreme for the Ontario Government, and should airlines begin to compete on the same routes. Only the routes where sizeable populations exist, and the potential for speed, service and numbers exist, should remain.So VIA corridor, GO and GO Regional, possibly Edmonton-Calgary (although that could be a provincial service) and the existing tourist trains (which also add a degree of connectivity to remote areas - So the Canadian etc) The rest is pure fantasy (fun, but fantasy).

If after 5 years of operating,if the ridership of the Northlander is filling the trains, what then? What then? We look at why it is a success and we look at other places that have similar metrics that can be successful.

Even the Montreal Transit Rail services are in danger if the government does not undergo a sea change in thought as well.

I heard about that. Is there any real reason given as to why those routes are unsuccessful? Is ridership down? Have costs risen? Is it more politicking to get what they want?

 

[lenaitch]

should airlines begin to compete on the same routes.

A return to pre-Covid frequencies would be helpful to show any level of interest. For Toronto-North Bay, Air Canada went from 3/day, to zero, to one. Porter briefly tried and lost interest.

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

The what? May I ask you when was the last time you stepped a foot into Quebec or talked to any Québecois(e)? The francophone majority might still not see the inclination to celebrate Canada Day (and honestly, why would anyone, given how we still treat the people from which we stole the lands to build our country?), but the question of independence is as irrelevant in the public mood here in Quebec, as it is in Bavaria, Scotland or Catalunya…

Opinion: The unity crisis that awaits us on the other side of the next election

In the face of the inevitable separatist provocation, would Pierre Poilievre have the patience and the fortitude neither to lash back, nor to give in?

www.theglobeandmail.com

I don't exactly like digging up old posts in threads, but I felt that this article gave a good illustration as to why I don't concern myself with the fate of interprovincial services in the corridor in a passenger rail provincialisation scenario.

 

[micheal_can]

Opinion: The unity crisis that awaits us on the other side of the next election

In the face of the inevitable separatist provocation, would Pierre Poilievre have the patience and the fortitude neither to lash back, nor to give in?

www.theglobeandmail.com

I don't exactly like digging up old posts in threads, but I felt that this article gave a good illustration as to why I don't concern myself with the fate of interprovincial services in the corridor in a passenger rail provincialisation scenario.

As much as I am a big proponent of expanding Via's services,I doubt anything it does would matter. Canada is on the brink of a split.

The first split is the one that is always hanging over us - Quebec. Chances are, BQ will have the most seats in the province after the next election, and soon after the PQ; who have stated they will have a referendum to split if elected, will win provincially.

The other split is Western Canada, specifically Alberta. Politically,they seem desperate to separate from Canada. If put to a vote, I can see it winning.

What Quebec wants is more money spent in Quebec. What Alberta wants is no taxes. I wonder what Canada will look like in 10 years.

 

[C_Johnson_1995]

As much as I am a big proponent of expanding Via's services,I doubt anything it does would matter. Canada is on the brink of a split.

The first split is the one that is always hanging over us - Quebec. Chances are, BQ will have the most seats in the province after the next election, and soon after the PQ; who have stated they will have a referendum to split if elected, will win provincially.

The other split is Western Canada, specifically Alberta. Politically,they seem desperate to separate from Canada. If put to a vote, I can see it winning.

What Quebec wants is more money spent in Quebec. What Alberta wants is no taxes. I wonder what Canada will look like in 10 years.

Exactly. Canada doesn't have a future (I don't think western separation is nearly as realistic though). As it stands with HFR at this point, I don't want all that political capital and public investment to go into a project where it will be rug pulled and end up on the other side of an international border. Ontario's intraprovincial intercity services should be the priority.

 

[micheal_can]

Exactly. Canada doesn't have a future (I don't think western separation is nearly as realistic though). As it stands with HFR at this point, I don't want all that political capital and public investment to go into a project where it will be rug pulled and end up on the other side of an international border. Ontario's intraprovincial intercity services should be the priority.

Well,tell dougie that the solution to 401 gridlock is not a tunnel then.

 

[roger1818]

Exactly. Canada doesn't have a future (I don't think western separation is nearly as realistic though). As it stands with HFR at this point, I don't want all that political capital and public investment to go into a project where it will be rug pulled and end up on the other side of an international border. Ontario's intraprovincial intercity services should be the priority.

So what you are saying is that since Quebec will leave Canada anyway, the government should stop spending any money on Quebec and focus all of their money on Ontario, further alienating Alberta, since you don't think they have the guts to leave.

 

[DSC]

Exactly. Canada doesn't have a future (I don't think western separation is nearly as realistic though). As it stands with HFR at this point, I don't want all that political capital and public investment to go into a project where it will be rug pulled and end up on the other side of an international border. Ontario's intraprovincial intercity services should be the priority.

What a lot of nonsense!

 

[crs1026]

Regardless of who wins our next election - or who wins the US election - Canada has a growing population and a need to improve transportation and productivity. Plus commitments to carbon reduction that we will eventually have to make good on.

Many posters have decried how much better the trains are in some parts of the third world. So, is becoming a third world country so bad? (We won’t join the third world, even under a pessimistic scenario - but you see my point).

Governments have a habit of talking big but then doing what needs to be done with ideology set aside. This may be such a scenario.

- Paul

 

[Islington Express Bus]

Even if Quebec splits (unlikely), you can still run a train across an international border.

 

[Mihairokov]

Many posters have decried how much better the trains are in some parts of the third world. So, is becoming a third world country so bad? (We won’t join the third world, even under a pessimistic scenario - but you see my point).

I really loathe when people use "third world" as a stand-in for "poor". It's outdated terminology used wrong.

Anyway, there's a trend online where people go to X country and show something cool with a comment like "Japan is really living in 2050!", but it's not really that places like Japan or China are living in 2050 but more-so that they're merely living in the present and things in North America have stagnated since the 1980s. Our public infrastructure is a great example of that.

 

[crs1026]

I really loathe when people use "third world" as a stand-in for "poor". It's outdated terminology used wrong.

And I really loathe when people sidestep a point because it is not expressed in the most trendy jargon.

I meant no offense and I certainly wasn't using the term in a judgemental way. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what term the faculty lounge is using these days to describe countries whose gross domestic product is stagnating or receding or has never been ranked high. The point being - so many such countries do invest in impressive rail passenger infrastructure.

Anyway, there's a trend online where people go to X country and show something cool with a comment like "Japan is really living in 2050!", but it's not really that places like Japan or China are living in 2050 but more-so that they're merely living in the present and things in North America have stagnated since the 1980s. Our public infrastructure is a great example of that.

I think we agree that our infrastructure is stagnating while many countries that sit lower in relative GDP are spending their more meagre wealth in building better infrastructure. So a decline in Canada's productivity and output does not need to forbid us from doing likewise. In that respect the doomsday scenarios that people are predicting based on certain political events are not barriers - that was my point.

- Paul