Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[micheal_can]

1) Sudbury is not a major city.

Sudbury is the largest city in Northern ON.
Sudbury is the largest city between Vaughan and Winnipeg
Sudbury is the 25th largest metro area in Canada.

2) The occasional accident is not justification for multi-billion dollar rail infrastructure.

Define occasional.
Once a year?
Once a month?
Once a week?
Once a day?

3) Service that is daily is not sufficient to deter the majority of people from driving.

HFR also won;t deter the majority of people from driving either, but it is a good venture for Canada.

 

[kEiThZ]

Define occasional.
Once a year?
Once a month?
Once a week?
Once a day?

Any frequency that significantly impacts functionality and utility of a road corridor. I don't think anything you've posted to date would meet that threshold.

HFR also won;t deter the majority of people from driving either, but it is a good venture for Canada.

Nobody has suggested HFR would deter the majority from driving. This is different from what you are insinuating when trying to link a road accident to the need for rail infrastructure.

That said HFR will shift modal share substantially more in the Corridor than a daily train to Sudbury would shift modal share between Sudbury and Toronto or Winnipeg.

Sudbury is the largest city in Northern ON.
Sudbury is the largest city between Vaughan and Winnipeg
Sudbury is the 25th largest metro area in Canada.

Who cares? 25th largest is not by any definition "major". Sudbury is a rounding error to our national population and economy.

 

[micheal_can]

Any frequency that significantly impacts functionality and utility of a road corridor. I don't think you've posted to date would meet that threshold.

I did not think everyone wanted me posting every road closure that is 12 hours long. I could, but If eel a lot of people would be wanting me banned.They tend to happen about once a month, once every few weeks during the winter. And there are no reroutes.

Nobody has suggested HFR would deter the majority from driving. This is different from what you are insinuating when trying to link a road accident to the need for rail infrastructure.

That said HFR will shift modal share substantially more in the Corridor than a daily train to Sudbury would shift modal share between Sudbury and Toronto or Winnipeg.

People though GO would mean no congestion in the GTA. I doubt if HSR was built much would change.

Who cares? 25th largest is not by any definition "major". Sudbury is a rounding error to our national population and economy.

Which is why I am not suggesting anything more than a singular daily service.

 

[Urban Sky]

For what it‘s worth, the 25th-largest city in Germany is Mönchengladbach, a city even most Germans have only ever heard of because it happens to host a Bundesliga team and which hasn’t been served by Intercity trains in decades, only regional trains which link it with something which Sudbury sorely lacks: similarly-sized (or even: larger) cities within any remotely relevant proximity…

 

[kEiThZ]

I did not think everyone wanted me posting every road closure that is 12 hours long. I could, but If eel a lot of people would be wanting me banned.They tend to happen about once a month, once every few weeks during the winter. And there are no reroutes.

Still not enough to justify rail service. Those delays maybe inconvenient but it isn't denting the local, regional or national economy substantially. And it's a lot cheaper (with a higher rate of return) to simply improve those sections of road than build rail.

People though GO would mean no congestion in the GTA.

You should learn what the Downs-Thomson paradox is. Anybody who thought GO would solve congestion in the GTA is clueless.

I doubt if HSR was built much would change.

HSR isn't aiming to solve traffic congestion.

Which is why I am not suggesting anything more than a singular daily service.

Remote cities like Sudbury don't justify any service at all. We have service on these routes not to serve these cities but the extremely rural and remote communities with no other alternative. And they don't need daily service. You need to learn the difference between a luxury and a necessity.

 

[Urban Sky]

You should learn what the Downs-Thomson paradox is. Anybody who thought GO would solve congestion in the GTA is clueless.

HSR isn't aiming to solve traffic congestion.

It always strikes me how many of the people with which we discuss here don‘t grasp that transit/rail investments are not about solving traffic, but to provide alternatives which progressively turn „being stuck in traffic“ into a lifestyle choice. That‘s exactly what urban conglomerations in the Netherlands or Denmark do…

 

[kEiThZ]

It always strikes me how many of the people with which we discuss here don‘t grasp that transit/rail investments are not about solving traffic, but to provide alternatives which progressively turn „being stuck in traffic“ into a lifestyle choice. That‘s exactly what urban conglomerations in the Netherlands or Denmark do…

Because the people you are talking about are fans of a given mode. They aren't all that preoccupied with actual mobility, effective use of tax dollars and improving quality of life.

 

[micheal_can]

For what it‘s worth, the 25th-largest city in Germany is Mönchengladbach, a city even most Germans have only ever heard of because it happens to host a Bundesliga team and which hasn’t been served by Intercity trains in decades, only regional trains which link it with something which Sudbury sorely lacks: similarly-sized (or even: larger) cities within any remotely relevant proximity…

So many want to to compare us and our rail system to Europe. The 25th largest city in Europe is Birmingham. Anyone ever heard of it? What kind of transportation options does it have?
(BTW,I know how silly this comparison is considering the population is about 10x)

Still not enough to justify rail service. Those delays maybe inconvenient but it isn't denting the local, regional or national economy substantially. And it's a lot cheaper (with a higher rate of return) to simply improve those sections of road than build rail.

When a truck heading east of Ontario, or East of Manitoba, it does and that is what those highway closures are causing.

You have still not said how much is enough. How much is enough?

You should learn what the Downs-Thomson paradox is. Anybody who thought GO would solve congestion in the GTA is clueless.

I know what that is. It is why any widening project in Toronto will solve nothing.

HSR isn't aiming to solve traffic congestion.

It is to move people faster between major cities?

Remote cities like Sudbury don't justify any service at all. We have service on these routes not to serve these cities but the extremely rural and remote communities with no other alternative. And they don't need daily service. You need to learn the difference between a luxury and a necessity.

ok.....

It always strikes me how many of the people with which we discuss here don‘t grasp that transit/rail investments are not about solving traffic, but to provide alternatives which progressively turn „being stuck in traffic“ into a lifestyle choice. That‘s exactly what urban conglomerations in the Netherlands or Denmark do…

How can your provide alternatives if the thing you provide comes twice a week?

 

[lenaitch]

When a truck heading east of Ontario, or East of Manitoba, it does and that is what those highway closures are causing.

Passenger rail will obviously have no impact of freight movement. Highway closures, caused by either a collision or weather, while disruptive to those caught up in it, won't impact the economy, in the same way a rail blockage for a day or two doesn't.

The chaos in the video clip you posted could have largely been prevented if the commercial vehicles hadn't been so bunch up, as required by law.

 

[kEiThZ]

So many want to to compare us and our rail system to Europe. The 25th largest city in Europe is Birmingham. Anyone ever heard of it? What kind of transportation options does it have?
(BTW,I know how silly this comparison is considering the population is about 10x)

Nice try moving the goalposts. How did we go from comparing a city in a country (Canada) to a city in a continent (Europe)? If you want to play that game, the appropriate comparison is 25th largest city in North America. Take a guess where Sudbury falls on that list.

When a truck heading east of Ontario, or East of Manitoba, it does and that is what those highway closures are causing.

You have still not said how much is enough. How much is enough?

As I said, when it starts actually impacting the regional or national economy. We're nowhere close to that. Also, what exactly would passenger rail do to solve the problem of highway closures impacting trucking?

I know what that is. It is why any widening project in Toronto will solve nothing.

You don't seem to understand what it is. Or you never would have suggested there should be expectation of GO resolving traffic.

It is to move people faster between major cities?

In part. What it is not meant to do is improve traffic, which is what you were alluding to earlier.

How can your provide alternatives if the thing you provide comes twice a week?

Who says alternatives need to be provided? There's a cost to providing alternatives. And in some cases, there's no value in actually providing alternatives.

 

[north-of-anything]

For what it‘s worth, the 25th-largest city in Germany is Mönchengladbach, a city even most Germans have only ever heard of because it happens to host a Bundesliga team and which hasn’t been served by Intercity trains in decades, only regional trains which link it with something which Sudbury sorely lacks: similarly-sized (or even: larger) cities within any remotely relevant proximity…

Not to mention Mönchengladbach also has the population of Sudbury and Thunder Bay combined.

 

[roger1818]

So many want to to compare us and our rail system to Europe. The 25th largest city in Europe is Birmingham. Anyone ever heard of it? What kind of transportation options does it have?
(BTW,I know how silly this comparison is considering the population is about 10x)

Because comparing a country to a continent is perfectly valid. Europe has a population of 751 million people, which is more than an order of magnitude larger than Canada. A better option would be to compare to Europe to North America (which has a population of over 592 million people). When you do that, the 25th largest city (not metropolitan area) in North America is Tegucigalpa, Honduras (population 1,132,000). When looking at metropolitan areas, it is Puebla, Mexico (population 3,199,530). Not sure where Sudbury would be on either list, but it would be way, way down.

In reality, ranking is irrelevant. The actual population is more important, and all of the cities discussed, are larger than Sudbury (even Mönchengladbach). Yes Sudbury might be the largest city in Northern Ontario, but that really isn't saying much. What is the largest city in Antarctica? Should it have daily rail service?

 

[micheal_can]

In part. What it is not meant to do is improve traffic, which is what you were alluding to earlier.

The Northlander, which will be a daily train to the hinterland will do nothing to the traffic on highway 11. That does not mean it should not happen. The video was from the area the Northlander will serve.

Who says alternatives need to be provided? There's a cost to providing alternatives. And in some cases, there's no value in actually providing alternatives.

In your post, you did.

 

[kEiThZ]

In your post, you did.

Alternatives in the Corridor. There's no value in providing alternatives to travellers to/from Sudbury (beyond buses). Our long distance services exist to service communities which have no alternatives (or severely compromised alternatives).

The Northlander, which will be a daily train to the hinterland will do nothing to the traffic on highway 11. That does not mean it should not happen. The video was from the area the Northlander will serve.

Entirely debatable. I think they'd be better off with much more frequent bus service. At least between Toronto and North Bay.

 

[micheal_can]

Alternatives in the Corridor. There's no value in providing alternatives to travellers to/from Sudbury. Our long distance services exist to service communities which have no alternatives (or severely compromised alternatives).

You did not specify that.

Entirely debatable. I think they'd be better off with much more frequent bus service. At least between Toronto and North Bay.

I noticed you did not say "We'd".