Lack of meaningful Passenger Rail service outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor

[crs1026]

In Montreal, there were plans to expand Grande Central's capacity for more EXO trains by constructing tunnels under the station. But the REM line has now made that impossible.

No one is saying we always get things right. The decision to sacrifice the Mount Royal tunnel for REM is a really wrongheaded decision, the reality is, two tunnels are needed so both rail lines are enabled . Trying to share was a Hail Mary fantasy that happily didn’t fly. Given that HSR is so slow to get started, I can’t fault Montreal for giving REM the priority, but a second tunnel project should be moving already and its cost ( it won’t be easy to thread thru the buildings, maybe it just isn’t possible) allocated across both projects.
The other possible mistakes are Ottawa and Barrie , but in both cases the urban improvement that has resulted may be better than having the rail line.
Saskatoon and Edmonton have both seen trackage let go that may be wanted some day, but only so many decades from now that the political vision may be unrealistic.
In the end we have to play the ball where it lues, and that may mean we don’t have much room to leverage existing rail corridors.
I do think that local transit is the chicken and regional or commuter rail is the egg. We need both to get people out of their cars. I disagree that building LRT is somehow sacrificing commuter rail…this is not a binary choice. Both are competing for the same envelope, and so the hest we can do is build some of each in parallel.

- Paul

 

[T3G]

Vancouver's Skytrain is a good example of what they mean.

SkyTrain is not LRT. It is analogous to Toronto's subway in forming the backbone of the city's electric rapid transit system.

My concern is that what ever route they decide for the Langley extension, the stations and tracks will probably take up prime real estate that would have been most optimal for commuter rail. Making future construction of a commuter rail line to Abbotsford more difficult.

Google map says the distance between Waterfront Station and the center of Langley is 37kms (as the crow flies). That would be similar to Union station to the center of Oakville. That's a very long metro ride.

I understand your concerns, but this seems more of a fringe case rather than any kind of wholesale argument against LRT or subway.

I do not think very highly of the Spadina subway extension, or any other back of the napkin fantasy plans to extend the Toronto subway to Square One, or to Pickering, or to other suburban destinations. The thought of having to commute in from York Region on the hard, dirty, uncomfortable subway seats with local stop spacing, rather than the infinitely more comfortable GO seats, on a train that covers multiple kilometres in between stops, sounds like hell. But there is a place for subways, and LRT, in general. They serve a valuable purpose in the fabric of urban transport. The fact that lazy transit planners are using it as a replacement for commuter rail by extending it obscene distances where no subway or LRT ever had any business running is the problem.

 

[micheal_can]

No one is saying we always get things right. The decision to sacrifice the Mount Royal tunnel for REM is a really wrongheaded decision, the reality is, two tunnels are needed so both rail lines are enabled . Trying to share was a Hail Mary fantasy that happily didn’t fly. Given that HSR is so slow to get started, I can’t fault Montreal for giving REM the priority, but a second tunnel project should be moving already and its cost ( it won’t be easy to thread thru the buildings, maybe it just isn’t possible) allocated across both projects.
The other possible mistakes are Ottawa and Barrie , but in both cases the urban improvement that has resulted may be better than having the rail line.
Saskatoon and Edmonton have both seen trackage let go that may be wanted some day, but only so many decades from now that the political vision may be unrealistic.
In the end we have to play the ball where it lues, and that may mean we don’t have much room to leverage existing rail corridors.
I do think that local transit is the chicken and regional or commuter rail is the egg. We need both to get people out of their cars. I disagree that building LRT is somehow sacrificing commuter rail…this is not a binary choice. Both are competing for the same envelope, and so the hest we can do is build some of each in parallel.

- Paul

Putting another tunnel in is much easier than putting a tunnel in where no tunnel was as in the case of Ottawa.

SkyTrain is not LRT. It is analogous to Toronto's subway in forming the backbone of the city's electric rapid transit system.

GO is the backbone in the GTA. WCE should be for the Lower Mainland.

I understand your concerns, but this seems more of a fringe case rather than any kind of wholesale argument against LRT or subway.

I do not think very highly of the Spadina subway extension, or any other back of the napkin fantasy plans to extend the Toronto subway to Square One, or to Pickering, or to other suburban destinations. The thought of having to commute in from York Region on the hard, dirty, uncomfortable subway seats with local stop spacing, rather than the infinitely more comfortable GO seats, on a train that covers multiple kilometres in between stops, sounds like hell. But there is a place for subways, and LRT, in general. They serve a valuable purpose in the fabric of urban transport. The fact that lazy transit planners are using it as a replacement for commuter rail by extending it obscene distances where no subway or LRT ever had any business running is the problem.

Those lines make some sense at being extended.However,what would make better sense is true fare integration.

 

[T3G]

GO is the backbone in the GTA. WCE should be for the Lower Mainland.

This misses the point that I was making, and is also numerically inaccurate.

The TTC subway has a yearly ridership of 235 million. The GO train is only 25 million over a much larger catchment area. There can be little debate that the TTC is much more significant for residents of the city than GO is.

 

[micheal_can]

This misses the point that I was making, and is also numerically inaccurate.

The TTC subway has a yearly ridership of 235 million. The GO train is only 25 million over a much larger catchment area. There can be little debate that the TTC is much more significant for residents of the city than GO is.

I more meant the general area than the city, but now I understand what you mean. When I look at mass transit, I look from the outside in, or in other words, getting from the far reaches into the core. If we want to avoid subway and LRT lines over 100km,a good GO network is needed. That is what the problem with the WCE is.

 

[lenaitch]

Putting another tunnel in is much easier than putting a tunnel in where no tunnel was as in the case of Ottawa.

How do you figure that?

 

[micheal_can]

How do you figure that?

I mean public opinion.
Imagine Montreal announced a new tunnel to Central station for EXO and Via HFR. I'd imagine the general public wouldn't care.
Now,imagine Ottawa announcing a new commuter rail system with Via connection downtown. with the challenges they had downtown building the LRT,I'd imagine it would not be received as well.

 

[roger1818]

I mean public opinion.
Imagine Montreal announced a new tunnel to Central station for EXO and Via HFR. I'd imagine the general public wouldn't care.
Now,imagine Ottawa announcing a new commuter rail system with Via connection downtown. with the challenges they had downtown building the LRT,I'd imagine it would not be received as well.

Re-opening Ottawa's Union Station wouldn't require much if any tunneling, but I'm not holding my breath as there are many other challenges. For VIA, their current station is good enough. A downtown station would only really be needed for commuter rail.

The problem is Ottawa is too small and most of the lines needed were torn up by the National Capital Commission (an unelected body that wields way too much power). Even if the tracks were there, Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans are too close to be the final stop on a commuter rail line, and the towns beyond them are way too small to support an extension.

 

[lenaitch]

Re-opening Ottawa's Union Station wouldn't require much if any tunneling, but I'm not holding my breath as there are many other challenges. For VIA, their current station is good enough. A downtown station would only really be needed for commuter rail.

The problem is Ottawa is too small and most of the lines needed were torn up by the National Capital Commission (an unelected body that wields way too much power). Even if the tracks were there, Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans are too close to be the final stop on a commuter rail line, and the towns beyond them are way too small to support an extension.

The NCC has so much power it can't build/re-build/maintain a decent home for our head of government.

 

[micheal_can]

Re-opening Ottawa's Union Station wouldn't require much if any tunneling, but I'm not holding my breath as there are many other challenges. For VIA, their current station is good enough. A downtown station would only really be needed for commuter rail.

There is no need to ever move the Ottawa Via station unless it is piggybacking on a project.

As far as tunneling, I would guess around 6km would need to be dug if it were to connect to existing lines and also to the POW bridge to get across the river. Not insurmountable, but the one from the south would need to be at least3 tracks wide. None of that includes the station cavern. If we assume 1 track per line, 2 lines for Via and 4-10 tracks for the commuter service, depending on whether any abandoned ROW is restored. This would be a100s of billions of dollars project. Tome, this is so far into fantasy that it only worth discussing if someone else brings it up.

The problem is Ottawa is too small and most of the lines needed were torn up by the National Capital Commission (an unelected body that wields way too much power). Even if the tracks were there, Kanata, Barrhaven and Orleans are too close to be the final stop on a commuter rail line, and the towns beyond them are way too small to support an extension.

If the NCC could get its act together, it would be smart if they worked with places like Pembroke, Renfrew, Arnprior, Carleton Place. Smith's Falls, Kemptville, Casselman, Rockland and Gatineau to plan out growing those places into more than just bedroom communities of endless sprawl.

 

[lenaitch]

There is no need to ever move the Ottawa Via station unless it is piggybacking on a project.

As far as tunneling, I would guess around 6km would need to be dug if it were to connect to existing lines and also to the POW bridge to get across the river. Not insurmountable, but the one from the south would need to be at least3 tracks wide. None of that includes the station cavern. If we assume 1 track per line, 2 lines for Via and 4-10 tracks for the commuter service, depending on whether any abandoned ROW is restored. This would be a100s of billions of dollars project. Tome, this is so far into fantasy that it only worth discussing if someone else brings it up.


If the NCC could get its act together, it would be smart if they worked with places like Pembroke, Renfrew, Arnprior, Carleton Place. Smith's Falls, Kemptville, Casselman, Rockland and Gatineau to plan out growing those places into more than just bedroom communities of endless sprawl.

The NCC is a landlord/property manager. Although they have a fair amount of clout, they are not a level of government. Land use planning belongs in the hands of the municipalities involved.

 

[micheal_can]

The NCC is a landlord/property manager. Although they have a fair amount of clout, they are not a level of government. Land use planning belongs in the hands of the municipalities involved.

Leaving it to the municipalities to do things will end up with a suburbia sprawl like we see in the GTA.If a National Capital commuter rail service ever gets implemented, the municipalities cannot be left to their own devices. It hasn't worked well for the GTA. WE don't need a repeat of that in the Ottawa area.

 

[roger1818]

The NCC is a landlord/property manager. Although they have a fair amount of clout, they are not a level of government. Land use planning belongs in the hands of the municipalities involved.

The NCC is not a level of government, but as a crown corporation, they are only responsible to the Federal Government and don't have to listen to the cities of Ottawa or Gatineau. The mayors of Ottawa and Gatineau do have seats on the board, but on a non-voting basis, so they have an opportunity voice their opinions to the board, but the board has no obligation to listen to either city.

 

[crs1026]

If the NCC could get its act together, it would be smart if they worked with places like Pembroke, Renfrew, Arnprior, Carleton Place. Smith's Falls, Kemptville, Casselman, Rockland and Gatineau to plan out growing those places into more than just bedroom communities of endless sprawl.

You might want to read up and absorb the long discussion about Moose Rail, which proposed exactly that, and failed to gain support.

One has to consider exactly where Ottawans want to get to, and not assume that everyone is headed downtown.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

Leaving it to the municipalities to do things will end up with a suburbia sprawl like we see in the GTA.If a National Capital commuter rail service ever gets implemented, the municipalities cannot be left to their own devices. It hasn't worked well for the GTA. WE don't need a repeat of that in the Ottawa area.

You might want to read Sections 91 and 92 of the Constitution Act before you propose getting an appointed federal government entity involved in the use of land they do not own.