Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector

[TOareaFan]

Kitchener trains are among the most crowded trains on the GO network.

They are crowded trains. Not sure they are more crowded than other lines but they are crowded. But a few points that may be relevant to this discussion. a) They are crowded eastbound in the morning and westbound in the evening....nothing there supports the notion that reveresed they would be as, or more, crowded as is suggested here.....b) they certainly are not crowded when they come out of KW or Guelph in the morning and they are far less than crowded in the evening after the line's core stations have been served....c) there is a bit of an optical illusion when you look at crowded trains on the KW line - the trains on this line have less capacity as they are only 10 cars long rather than the 12 more common on other GO lines.

 

[ehlow]

Well...I was joking but I disagree with the observation that there are more westward commuters than eastward commuters in the morning. Sorry if you took offense to the joke.

No offence taken . I may be wrong, I just hear much more often about people commuting Toronto to Kitchener than the other way around. Kitchener to Toronto doesn't seem to have a huge amount of people, yet companies are chartering private buses to get their employees from Toronto to Kitchener. Just an observation, I don't have numbers.

 

[mdrejhon]

Kitchener trains are among the most crowded trains on the GO network.

Key word being "among"

Not necessarily the most crowded, but among them.
Granted, the peak period ones are crowded by the time it arrives at Union because of the large number of municipalities it goes through (e.g. Kitchener, Guelph, Brampton...)

 

[rbt]

There are far more commuting students than that.

Toronto Region to Kitchener Region is not the same as within walking distance of Union Station/Bloor Station (arriving at 9am means leaving before the TTC subway opens) to walking distance of Kitchener GO.

The new Kitchener LRT and other things will help in the future. For this mornings commuters the Kitchener LRT was not helpful.

 

[rbt]

There is a growing cluster of companies within walking distance of Kitchener station. In addition the LRT will connect with the GO station.

Yeah, in 3 or 4 years this is going to have some use.

mdrejhon wanted it 6 months ago. I don't think it would have been a good use of 2013/2014 resources to launch counter-peak Kitchener service instead of say the added Milton train.


The Kitchener trip simply needs to be much faster to be useful. Making it to your Kitchener destination for 9am would in most cases require getting on the GO train at Union Station before or very shortly after TTC subway service is available.

Since students were mentioned: 2 hours to Kitchener from Union (6:15am train), 10 minute wait, 25 minutes to University of Waterloo (7 or 8 bus), 15 minute walk to your 9am class just on-time. Many students have a first class long before 9am.

 

[Komiksulo]

Perhaps we need to be thinking of a system of KW-centric rail trips?

 

[ehlow]

Toronto Region to Kitchener Region is not the same as within walking distance of Union Station/Bloor Station (arriving at 9am means leaving before the TTC subway opens) to walking distance of Kitchener GO.

The new Kitchener LRT and other things will help in the future. For this mornings commuters the Kitchener LRT was not helpful.

Yeah, in 3 or 4 years this is going to have some use.

mdrejhon wanted it 6 months ago. I don't think it would have been a good use of 2013/2014 resources to launch counter-peak Kitchener service instead of say the added Milton train.


The Kitchener trip simply needs to be much faster to be useful. Making it to your Kitchener destination for 9am would in most cases require getting on the GO train at Union Station before or very shortly after TTC subway service is available.

Since students were mentioned: 2 hours to Kitchener from Union (6:15am train), 10 minute wait, 25 minutes to University of Waterloo (7 or 8 bus), 15 minute walk to your 9am class just on-time. Many students have a first class long before 9am.

With students the demand would more be coming to Toronto on Fridays and heading back on Sundays. There's already significant demand for this travel pattern on buses, both to outer GTA and Union station.

For tech workers, well, firstly in tech (Silicon Valley originated) work culture there's not really a requirement to come in at 9am, hours are usually very flexible with a much bigger focus on results than hours & time.

Secondly, if good service was there there would be a developing population of who live in the condos near Union who work in Waterloo. There already is at least one company busing employees from downtown TO to Kitchener (Google).

The main reason I think it's viable is because there's already both at least one bus and many drivers who commute downtown TO to Waterloo.

Although, many tech companies are doing satellite offices in downtown Toronto, which is good as well. Another alternative is getting an apartment in KW for the work week while keeping your primary home in Toronto, which I've heard people doing as well.

Anyways, if you're saying 3-4 years, I doubt a counter peak train would happen anytime before that anyways.

 

[mdrejhon]

mdrejhon wanted it 6 months ago.

Correction. I needed it in 2012-2013 for a 6 month period.

I don't think it would have been a good use of 2013/2014 resources to launch counter-peak Kitchener service instead of say the added Milton train.

No disagreement, but if the government starts spending NOW to get ready for all day service, it will not happen for a few years due to corridor upgrades to speed up Kitchener. 1.5 hours is doable with corridor upgrades and express operation (going express after Mt. Pleasant or Brampton). And ION LRT will be done by the time Kitchener all day starts, speeding up the local commute. And schedule will finally meet reverse commute surge needs (university hours).

 

[TOareaFan]

Correction. I needed it in 2012-2013 for a 6 month period.


No disagreement, but if the government starts spending NOW to get ready for all day service, it will not happen for a few years due to corridor upgrades to speed up Kitchener. 1.5 hours is doable with corridor upgrades and express operation (going express after Mt. Pleasant or Brampton). And ION LRT will be done by the time Kitchener all day starts, speeding up the local commute. And schedule will finally meet reverse commute surge needs (university hours).

This is the part I don't understand.....sure, it will speed up the trip from KW to Toronto but it means these trains that can make to KW to Toronto in 1.5 hours will be doing so with very few people on them as a lot of the stations that fill the trains will be bypassed. Not sure how we balance this but it is a bit of a conundrum.

 

[mpd618]

That'll get you to the city area but it isn't going to get him to the specific office building he needed to be at. Employment within walking distance of the downtown Kitchener might be enough for a draw of what? 15 people per train?

Large employers within walking distance or a 20 minute iXpress/LRT trip from the Kitchener station include: Google (which runs its own buses from Toronto), Desire2Learn, Sun Life (also runs buses), Manulife, University of Waterloo, Wilfrid Laurier University, Open Text, SAP/Sybase. Not to mention the large and growing number of downtown Kitchener based start-ups.

Although, many tech companies are doing satellite offices in downtown Toronto, which is good as well.

I believe some of these offices are motivated by the difficulty of finding business, marketing, etc. talent in Kitchener-Waterloo. So they find them in Toronto. If there was a reasonable commute from Toronto to Kitchener, they might not need to have a satellite office at all.

 

[TOareaFan]

Large employers within walking distance or a 20 minute iXpress/LRT trip from the Kitchener station include: Google (which runs its own buses from Toronto), Desire2Learn, Sun Life (also runs buses), Manulife, University of Waterloo, Wilfrid Laurier University, Open Text, SAP/Sybase. Not to mention the large and growing number of downtown Kitchener based start-ups.

Listing employers does not mean they all live in Toronto or there is a sizable commuter base. We have about 500 or our 800 employees in KW.....they live in KW. Of the 300 in Toronto...about 50 of them live in KW (genrally people who transfered offices but did not move residence). So your answer to my question about trains running faster but bypassing where most of the riders come is that there are jobs in KW?

As for the offices in Toronto.....I thought this hi tech corridor/connector train was modelled on the rail link between San Jose and San Francisco? That certainly didn't lead to Google closing its San Francisco offices which are pretty close to their global HQ in Mountainview.

 

[mpd618]

So your answer to my question about trains running faster but bypassing where most of the riders come is that there are jobs in KW?

I didn't respond to your post.

As for the offices in Toronto.....I thought this hi tech corridor/connector train was modelled on the rail link between San Jose and San Francisco? That certainly didn't lead to Google closing its San Francisco offices which are pretty close to their global HQ in Mountainview.

The Silicon Valley comparison is very rough. One major difference is that the "suburban" location here is growing more dense and urban - something Google tried to get Mountain View to do, to no avail.

 

[mdrejhon]

This is the part I don't understand.....sure, it will speed up the trip from KW to Toronto but it means these trains that can make to KW to Toronto in 1.5 hours will be doing so with very few people on them as a lot of the stations that fill the trains will be bypassed. Not sure how we balance this but it is a bit of a conundrum.

It would only be during peak periods. And only eventually.

Kitchener, Guelph, and the multiple near-Brampton stations should fill up a couple of peak period GO trains, due to the attraction of faster speed, if there is ample access(ION LRT, Hurontario) and parking (Mt. Pleasant garage expansion). There is enough people from Kitchener-to-Brampton once things are well integrated enough to make it attractive. Offpeak all stop trains aren't the end of the world if you miss the express GO train...

The express plan is already being studied. The GO RER PDF (Google "GO RER PDF") on Metrolinx website suggests express after Mt. Pleasant, but I think express after Brampton is better, if Hurontario is built.

The various RER express service models are being assessed and we probably will see suggested RER service model proposals in the near future, including the Kitchener express trains proposed by Metrolinx GO RER. This isn't "this decade" stuff, but more "next decade" stuff, but they claim incremental upgrades are expected, so there are studies on the appropriate phasing of service improvements towards the RER end goal, like timing of introducing express service on various GO lines.

 

[TOareaFan]

I didn't respond to your post.

you're correct...sorry. but the the rest of the less snarky part of my post still applies.

 

[TOareaFan]

It would only be during peak periods. And only eventually.

Kitchener, Guelph, and the multiple near-Brampton stations should fill up a couple of peak period GO trains, due to the attraction of faster speed, if there is ample access(ION LRT, Hurontario) and parking (Mt. Pleasant garage expansion). There is enough people from Kitchener-to-Brampton once things are well integrated enough to make it attractive. Offpeak all stop trains aren't the end of the world if you miss the express GO train...

Going direct from either Brampton or Mt. Pleasant bypasses the busiest station on the line (Bramalea) which also connects to many significant bus routes. If you stop at all 3 Brampton stations....the speed/time pick up on the route is much less. That is the dilemma I am trying to understand.....significant speed pick up by making trains express loses significant potential ridership....stopping to pick up riders does not get you much time improvement.

The express plan is already being studied. The GO RER PDF (Google "GO RER PDF") on Metrolinx website suggests express after Mt. Pleasant, but I think express after Brampton is better, if Hurontario is built.

Yep, I have read that....still don't get it...still struggling with how full trains can be if they bypass everything east of Mt. Pleasant. My bet...not very.