King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[Mount Dennis Resident]

I think a major factor which is rarely mentioned is how absurdly slow the typical streetcar seems to go, even with no traffic they never seem to go over 20km/h. Then there's the stop and crawl through intersections and a really long dwell time at each stop even to let 1 person on. I remember the ALRVs being way faster on average.

I find the Outlook streetcars to have a shorter dwell time. People can get on any door. I tend to use the rearmost door (good at farside stops). It's the "rules" that the TTC imposes on the streetcar drivers for "safety" that is the holdup. As well as the non-priority that streetcars (and buses) get.

 

[DSC]

I think a major factor which is rarely mentioned is how absurdly slow the typical streetcar seems to go, even with no traffic they never seem to go over 20km/h. Then there's the stop and crawl through intersections and a really long dwell time at each stop even to let 1 person on. I remember the ALRVs being way faster on average.

There is lots of discussion on this Board and on Steve Munro's site about the TTC's policy of going through switches at a crawl and not having two streetcars on them at the same time. This is because the TTC maintenance of switches is very poor (the same TTC department who maintain the overhead who were slammed by the AG recently are responsible.) (See https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/...71ab757&hash=DB8F4EE29AA71380B8EFA151461CE3E5 )

 

[T3G]

I find the Outlook streetcars to have a shorter dwell time. People can get on any door. I tend to use the rearmost door (good at farside stops). It's the "rules" that the TTC imposes on the streetcar drivers for "safety" that is the holdup. As well as the non-priority that streetcars (and buses) get.

This may have been true before COVID, but since the TTC slowed down the door closing on the Flexitys, they take an eternity to get moving. By comparison, the old high floors, in the last years of all door boarding, flew.

Of course, having PRESTO readers right at the door also doesn't help. What an immensely stupid idea that is.

 

[JasonParis]

Busy stops should have readers right at the stop. Sort of like how GO trains work.

 

[DSC]

Busy stops should have readers right at the stop. Sort of like how GO trains work.

They had plans for this (including ticket machines) ages ago ........

 

[nfitz]

This may have been true before COVID, but since the TTC slowed down the door closing on the Flexitys, they take an eternity to get moving. By comparison, the old high floors, in the last years of all door boarding, flew.

Of course, having PRESTO readers right at the door also doesn't help. What an immensely stupid idea that is.

I haven't noticed the doors being different - I think it's a minor impact.

It also seems faster to me now, than with the old vehicles. I don't recall waiting once through 3 light cycles while they try and board everyone through one door with a lot of steps on a CLRV.

I also don't notice much problem with people tapping, blocking the door.

And I frequently drive on streetcar routes. I've never followed one going 20 km/hr; unless it too is stuck in traffic.

I feel that some are looking for problems here.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

They had plans for this (including ticket machines) ages ago ........

All or almost all the ticket machines along the Spadina streetcar line have been destroyed by vandals and are basically just abandoned in place now.

 

[T3G]

I haven't noticed the doors being different - I think it's a minor impact.

I uploaded a before and after - judge for yourself:

https://fb.watch/oCp2-9Qtnp/

It also seems faster to me now, than with the old vehicles. I don't recall waiting once through 3 light cycles while they try and board everyone through one door with a lot of steps on a CLRV.

The comparison is with all door boarding in the last years of CLRV operation, not with the days of single door boarding. Seems rather unfair - if you forced everyone to file on through one door on a Flexity, you'd find them agonizingly slow, too.

 

[nfitz]

I uploaded a before and after - judge for yourself:

Ah, interesting. Yes, about 2 seconds slower now. Still, given how quickly they start to close after the last person enters, compared to the CLRVs.

The comparison is with all door boarding in the last years of CLRV operation, not with the days of single door boarding. Seems rather unfair - if you forced everyone to file on through one door on a Flexity, you'd find them agonizingly slow, too.

Ah yes, the back-door loading of the CLRVs, when the car was full, it took forever for someone to get off the stairs, so the back door could close. And even when there was space, someone would have trouble tapping, stopping the person behind them getting off the stairs.

An improvement over front-door loading only. But I think it's faster today overall.

 

[adys123]

I uploaded a before and after - judge for yourself:

https://fb.watch/oCp2-9Qtnp/

The comparison is with all door boarding in the last years of CLRV operation, not with the days of single door boarding. Seems rather unfair - if you forced everyone to file on through one door on a Flexity, you'd find them agonizingly slow, too.

Thanks for posting this video, I've always felt this way about the doors, but never had a direct comparison.

 

[Northern Light]

This may have been true before COVID, but since the TTC slowed down the door closing on the Flexitys, they take an eternity to get moving. By comparison, the old high floors, in the last years of all door boarding, flew.

Of course, having PRESTO readers right at the door also doesn't help. What an immensely stupid idea that is.

That brings up not merely all-door loading, and Presto Reader location on buses, but the achingly slow open/close time on the rear doors of most buses in the fleet.

I was thinking just the other day that it would make more sense if the doors opened with a side slide, rather than opening perpendicular to the bus.

 

[DSC]

Of course, having PRESTO readers right at the door also doesn't help. What an immensely stupid idea that is.

It is very common to see readers at the entrances to transit vehicles in many cities, presumably because an inspector can easily see those who do not tap. Of course, I have seen several transit systems where the reader is 'opposite' the doors not at them and that might slightly speed things up, but at the expense of some seating.

 

[T3G]

W

It is very common to see readers at the entrances to transit vehicles in many cities, presumably because an inspector can easily see those who do not tap. Of course, I have seen several transit systems where the reader is 'opposite' the doors not at them and that might slightly speed things up, but at the expense of some seating.

Why would you have to sacrifice any seats? Just mount them to the stanchions, strategically throughout the vehicle, spaced in such a way that people don't block any choke points in the vehicle.

Do fare inspectors run our transit system? We should be designing our transit system in such a way that optimizes comfort and efficiency, not catering to one fringe case.

P.S. If we cut some seats from our current buses, it would only be a good thing. There is nowhere to stand on a bus where you are not in someone's way. The last bus with a good floor plan was the 1996 Orion V, with the empty space across from the rear doors.

 

[FastidiousHack]

The stop spacing is also ridiculous, many of them are less than 200 meters apart. Stopping that many times along a route is really slow.

 

[Northern Light]

Why would you have to sacrifice any seats? Just mount them to the stanchions, strategically throughout the vehicle, spaced in such a way that people don't block any choke points in the vehicle.

I basically agree, but wonder about conflicts with accessibility regulations where a reader may be seen to impede someone's ability to hold on.

We should be designing our transit system in such a way that optimizes comfort and efficiency.....

Agreed.

P.S. If we cut some seats from our current buses, it would only be a good thing. There is nowhere to stand on a bus where you are not in someone's way. The last bus with a good floor plan was the 1996 Orion V, with the empty space across from the rear doors.

I think for safety, if nothing else, I strongly prefer transit where everyone has a seat; I realize that's more expensive, and few systems run like that in the real world, nonetheless.....

While I do prioritize riders having seats vs standing, I think that's better resolved through greater vehicle frequency/service than a poor circulation layout.

The biggest impediment to proper layout in our buses, to my mind, is the mixed height floors. I think a 100% low-floor model would be preferable.

The mixed height model creates dead-space on the stairs, and tends to result in under utilization of the rear of the bus, because many people don't want to use stairs, some for entirely legitimate reasons (proneness to falling as an example). Additionally, people with strollers, bundle buggies, and mobility aids can't access that space, the poor sightline from the rest of the bus means people can' necessarily see if there's any open seats up top either.

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To our transit vehicle experts here; what's in the market now by way of 100% low-floor? Is there a significant price difference vs our current rolling stock? I assume part of the issue w/going 100% low-floor would a change in garage-set up for how buses are maintained...... are there any other barriers to switching?